Liberty degenerate

Liberty degenerated

Question proposed on Facebook from Paul VP,

"When people first became Christians, it is true that they organized politically as a mutual aid community that had zero coercion. However, did they completely disengage from any commerce or work within the existing supply chains of the State-captured economy and did they exclusively only produce and trade with and for one another?"

They were capitalists.

Many soldiers even became Christians. What made them separate and peculiar was that they would not sign up to take the free bread offered by the Roman government and other city states.

They were even persecuted when Rome outlawed private religion. See Vigellius Saturninus and the Acts of the Scillitan Martyrs, https://preparingyou.com/wiki/Free_bread

"Gregory, in today's economy, receiving welfare is clearly "free bread"."

But, how about working and earning a salary from a corporation, or even earning salary in FRN USD, which is preferentially available to the friends of the State and those close to them, and which is a bondage device for the poor?

Gregory's comment Updated

Paul VP the present day citizens of the world have returned completely back into the bondage of Egypt where they are dependent upon the governments of the world for the health care, welfare, education of their children, and even the care of their parents.

The Israelites went into bondage because they would not hear the cries of their brother.

Genesis 42:21 "And they said one to another, We are verily guilty concerning our brother, in that we saw the anguish of his soul, when he besought us, and we would not hear; therefore is this distress come upon us. 22 And Reuben answered them, saying, Spake I not unto you, saying, Do not sin against the child; and ye would not hear? therefore, behold, also his blood is required."

The same is true today. For generations the people did not provide for the needy through fervent charity. But the people have an appetite for the "dainties of rulers" who exercise authority one over the other through the rudiments of the world.

Colossians 2:20 "Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, 21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not; 22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?"

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Colossians 3:5 "Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:"

We need to repent because of Colossians 3:6 "For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: 7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them. 8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. 9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;"

Take a lesson from Exodus:

While in the bondage of Egypt the Israelites would have to learn to care for one another during hard times, still working in the system of Egypt but without the "straw" benefits given by the pharaoh's government during plagues before they were free to go. We may get the same opportunity. It is time to become doers of the word.

https://preparingyou.com/wiki/Bondage_of_Egypt

Brian K: "According to the New Testament they still existed within the Roman society, having jobs, owning businesses, and even GASP being both masters owning slaves and slaves owned by masters, and paying taxes to the Roman government as commanded by Jesus, Paul and Peter, and never once uttering one word about government being an inherently immoral idea, but preaching the Second Coming of the Righteous Monarch who will slaughter all who oppose Him when He returns."

Brian K I read most of your comments and conversation with Matthew T. There are things missing in your rational. First, i will say: "paying taxes to the Roman government as commanded by Jesus, Paul and Peter, and never once uttering one word about government being an inherently immoral idea, but preaching the Second Coming of the Righteous Monarch who will slaughter all who oppose Him when He returns".

If we owe the tax pay it, why do you owe it?

Proverbs 12:24 "The hand of the diligent shall bear rule: but the slothful shall be under tribute."

Slothful in what?

One of the taxes in Judea after Herod and in Rome was Corban. In the Old Testament Corban was a freewill offering.

Signing up with the government temple of Herod and the Pharisees was the covetous practices that made the word of God to none effect. Jesus said we were not to be like the governments of the gentiles, Paul said eat not, touch not and that covetousness was idolatry and Peter said it would make us merchandise and curse children. https://preparingyou.com/wiki/Corban

Matthew T I was reading your debate with Brian K and already responded to him concerning objections by Jesus, Paul, Peter, and all the prophets against signing up for social welfare from governments that "exercise authority" to get benefits, government "dainties" at the expense of your neighbor like the "Corban" of the Pharisees.

We need to understand all temples were government buildings providing services. It is the means and method that often distinguishes them, making them righteous and unrighteous.

I thought I would start with Romans 13 since both of you are a little confused about what it is saying.

Romans 13 is about your power or "liberty". https://preparingyou.com/wiki/Romans_13

Matthew T wrote Brian K Jesus told Peter they were "immune from the temple tax, and had him miraculously find a coin in a fish’s mouth to pay the tax “so as not to pay offense.”

In fact, that seems to be the entire attitude of the early Christians to all these immoral systems of taxation and slavery and so forth: it is more important to spread the Gospel of the kingdom, and then let that work out the better way in people.

In essence, as it is written, “If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all” and “Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse them."

Yet, ultimately: “But Peter and the apostles answered, “We must obey God rather than men.”

Matthew T They were not really "immune from the temple tax." While Jesus did not owe the tax as the virtual high priest and king and Peter may have not been "registered" (another issue). The problem was Peter had miss spoke by answer the question with "Yes". What did Jesus say about that?

Jesus was just making his yes, yes.

Matthew 5:37 "But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil."

https://preparingyou.com/wiki/Pay_tribute

Matthew T Did you even read the article I wrote and shared?

It appears many of the disciples unregistered with the system of Corban set up by Herod and the Pharisees. They may not have not been legally required to pay the tax being on registered.

The followers of Christ who were learning the Way still owed the tax even though Jesus said it was "making the word of God to none effect".

We know that the chief rulers would eventually make the rule that if you professed Jesus as the Christ you would be kicked out of the system.

This all in the Bible and we show you where for free which is why we share the links.

Modern Christians which may not be real followers of Christ but workers of iniquity as Jesus and all the apostles warned.

John 9:22 These words spake his parents, because they feared the Jews: for the Jews had agreed already, that if any man did confess that he was Christ, he should be put out of the synagogue.

Matthew T I see Michael P already shared my original article Was Paul a Roman citizen and the real meaning of Rhomaios.

Everyone should know all centurions were granted Roman citizenship but right in the text the head of the cohort tells you he had to pay a great sum for the freedom that comes with the status of Rhomaios. Everyone should have been suspicious that Roman citizenship and Rhomaios were not the same thing.

I know I know it jumped out at me a half a century ago when I read it.

There are lots of words that people are kept in ignorance of especially if they think they already know.

https://preparingyou.com/wiki/Was_Paul_a_Roman_Citizen

Joseph F

Paul's appeal to Caesar was a legal strategy to protect Christians. He had no need to appeal because he had already as good as won the case.

While his case for the kingdom was pending before Caesar few judges appointed by Caesar would rule against Christians on the same grounds. He was sacrificing himself to make amends for his persecutions of Christians. Besides he had relatives in Rome and he was able to stay with them.

Joseph F "Gregory W you have raised very different issues from Michael P. He is lasar focused on the Biblical definition of law and social foundations like few I’ve met."

"What you say is a more traditional view. But a little too American. I think Paul made his appointment with Caesar not as a legal strategy, Roman persecution was still 20 years in the future. He was booking a sit down with Caesar which was the only thing He really cared to get out of his jail time."

"The point I was making for Michael is Paul used whatever socio-cultural connections he had, to advance the kingdom. Neither he nor Jesus saw a principle based need to renounce or remain uninvolved in the social and economic world including social/legal ties. He nor Jesus did not renounce his citizenship or tell soldiers to renounce the military or slaves to renounce masters. While Jesus might say, “sell all and follow me.” And “let the dead bury the dead” neither seemed to think being or not being a citizen soldier even Rabbi mattered. They didn’t seem to think, what today are called “structural evil’s” needed boycotts, renunciation, going AWAL or refusing to pay taxes."

Joseph F my comment to you was laser focused. 🤠

And it was not a traditional answer at all so you may have missed it. Persecutions had already begun because Paul had been doing it so your 20 year comment falls short by more than 20 years. Why do you think Paul was on trial?

I know you said "Roman persecutions" but the Pharisees had already said the had no king but Caesar and that Jesus was the king of the Jews. Paul's appeal to Caesar guaranteed protection for Christians from lower courts in Judea and many city-states who would find their rulings appealed to local Roman judges appointed by the Apotheos of Rome.

BUT:

I am curious what Michael Plaisted says about my supposed "more traditional view" since much of what he shares I wrote when he was still just a pup. 🤠

To Joseph: "The point I was making for Michael is Paul used whatever socio-cultural connections he had, to advance the kingdom. Neither he nor Jesus saw a principle based need to renounce or remain uninvolved in the social and economic world including social/legal ties."

Jesus did "renounce and remained uninvolved in the social and economic world of the Pharisees including social/legal ties" of their Corban which was their welfare system run by their government. And He and Paul and Peter and James and all the prophets said don't eat at their tables, because their welfare is a snare and the dainties and wages of unrighteous, make you merchandise, curse children.

But more important is to seek the kingdom of God and the Corban of Christ. https://preparingyou.com/wiki/Corban_of_Christ

Jesus and Moses were capitalists. Why would anyone object to commerce which is defined as: “the exchanging, buying, or selling of things having economic value between two or more entities, for example goods, services, and money"

Certainly if money is used it should be just weights and measures.

Michael P you can be a subject of Rome and be a Christian. you could be a soldier, a slave, a prisoner. What makes you a Christian is repentance which means "thinking differently". And seeking the kingdom of God and His righteousness. The thinking differently would be thinking like Christ according to the "word" which is the "Logos" of Christ.

If we had the Logos of Christ we would not covet, we would gather to serve others, we would not oppress others. we would forgive, we would do the will of the Father. We would lay down our life for our fellow man if our Father calls us to.

The modern Christian covets his neighbor's goods through men who exercise authority which is the opposite of Christ. They are doing so many things the Christ oppose and not doing some of the basics that Christ commanded. This is why we write and talk about the Gospel of the kingdom and the Logos of Christ.

https://preparingyou.com/wiki/Logos

Archbishop Vigano speaks on the Great reset, Klause Schwab, and the WEF.

https://www.facebook.com/share/v/yu1UqMSs3ije3UhB/

Why does he not tell the people to seek the real kingdom of God in the Tens like Christ commanded his disciples and create the social bonds of a free people through the practice of pure Religion rather the covetous practices of public religion through the State which the Catholic Church has encouraged for years even though the Bible tells us it is a snare, Jesus says it makes the word of God to none effect and we should not be that way, and Paul tells us to eat not of those tables for they are idolatry, and Peter says they will make us merchandise and curse Children. https://preparingyou.com/wiki/Pure_religion