Ben Angel

Ben Angel said

"Socialism is far better than capitalism"

Gregory to Ben Angel
Real Christians do not depend upon systems of social welfare that force the contributions of the people. But the only way out of poverty is to strengthen the poor. This can only be done through a combination of the individual choices of Capitalism and charity. Socialist the welfare programs of modern State robs the choices of individuals that normally nurtures the soul of society and degenerates it's members weakening the poor financially and the character of the rich. It divides society. Forced redistribution of wealth nurtures tyranny. https://preparingyou.com/wiki/Socialism

Gregory to Ben Angel
Almost every major problem with modern capitalism stems from the introduction of socialism which takes away individual choice or liberty and centralizes the power of choice encouraging "despotism" in leaders. Subsidizing the selfish excess of wealthy capitalists with socialist programs through covetous practices undermines the economy until it is no longer real capitalism. https://preparingyou.com/wiki/Capitalism

'Ben Angel to
Gregory Williams and Rafi. You miss some important points. The global capitalists are the ones running the show. Ok, there is Trump who believes in protectionist capitalism, thar is to say protect USA capitalists.

Capitalism is a system where the vast majority do the very hard work and a few ger to keep all the profits. I know in theory we can go and start a business and be one of those 20% who succeed,

I'm talking about the global capitalists and those at home who lobby the governments, avoid paying taxes - meaning we pay their share, gain tax cuts, gain government subsidies, bailouts and with all the money they save lend it to the government with interest.

Giant profits for weapons manufacturers and oil producers is also a byproduct of capitalism. Global capitalism is a new form of imperialism.

A lot of money has been spent to destroy the socialist movement both by the global capitalists and by the CIA (Cold war.) All sorts of false socialists have been used including democrats, in England New Labour, and even more extreme Adolf Hitler and Mussolini.

Without genuine socialists there would be no workers rights, no minimum wage and people who lost their job would be on the scrap heap. Health care would not available to everyone.

Ben Angel says:
The problem IS the capitalist system, social democracy is just capitalism with a band aid. Capitalism cannot work in a modern society, when it requires that everything is driven for profit. As well as the corruption this can cause. A lot of necessary services can only survive with massive taxes. Perhaps a bonus points system. If 100 of us decide to go and build a railway to ease traffic and the environment, the government will say there is no money. However they could issue bonus points which do not require taxing. It is not profit driven. It is simply a reward for in exchange for something productive.

Did you read

Gregory to Ben Angel
Ben Angel Did you read the article or fail to understand the meaning of it? It is better read online.

The United States has been becoming less and less capitalist to the point where there is little left but pseudo capitalism in America.

First, there is a serious lack of real capital since the creation of the Federal Reserve by socialists and communists like Edward Mandell House.

With the loss of just weights and measures the potential of true capitalism is lost. The pervasiveness of a mere legal title through the discharge of debt with notes capitalism is further undermined. But when the masses develop an appetite for benefits through the covetous practices of the socialist system of social welfare through exercising authority of the State the people have lost the moral compass required for the pure application of true capitalism through the "perfect law of liberty". https://preparingyou.com/wiki/Capitalism#A_bad_rap

Ben Angel says:
Mao certainly wanted to created a socialist system,, but both Russia and China suffered from 90% poverty rates when they took over. Not only did it make it extremely hard to fund but they were being sabotaged by the USA and the European imperialists.

Gregory to Ben Angel
Ben Angel Mao and Lenin and Stalin were tyrants at heart and those nations were morally bankrupt because the people already turned a blind eye to the immorality of Marxism and socialism as covetous practices. https://preparingyou.com/wiki/Covetous_practices

George Soros

Gregory to Ben Angel
Ben Angel When the masses are immorally willing to take from others by force the social benefits from the labor and property of others they will not only degenerate they will give rise to tyrants. No rule making nor Constitution will protect them . https://preparingyou.com/wiki/Masses

The "global capitalists" are all socialists like Edward Mandell House. https://preparingyou.com/wiki/Edward_Mandell_House

George Soros also advocates socialism. "I think there's a lot of merit in an international economy and global markets, but they're not sufficient because markets don't look after social needs. Markets are designed to allow individuals to look after their private needs and to pursue profit. It's really a great invention and I wouldn't under-estimate the value of that, but they're not designed to take care of social needs."

The present pseudo capitalist "markets don't look after social needs" because of Marxist and socialists like George Soros

They know the precepts of socialism "degenerate" the electorate which openly allows for "those at home who lobby the governments, avoid paying taxes." https://preparingyou.com/wiki/George_Soros

Ben Angel says:
I DO NOT trust George Soros. Capitalists lobby governments not socialists. Only a very small percentage of the population are in a position to pursue profits.

Gregory to Ben Angel
Ben Angel There is just as much lobbying in socialist nations. They just do not have register. Like I said the Federal Reserve was started by socialists and Marxist who were also Bankers. Despotism 101 is first get the people addicted to government benefits which is why he said “The real destroyers of the liberties of the people is he who spreads among them bounties, donations, and benefits.” Plutarch

He even explained the it was the socialist policies of Caesar that ruined Rome. "That the man who first ruined the Roman people twas he who first gave them treats and gratuities. But this mischief crept secretly and gradually in, and did not openly make it's appearance in Rome for a considerable time." Plutarch's Life of Coriolanus (c. 100 AD.)

This is of course why Jesus said that the people were not to be socialists but to live by charity not force like the socialists do. You can do that with true capitalism because capitalism is not a political system.

"Capitalism is merely an economic system based on private ownership, control, and operation of the means of production and their beneficial use." No one today owns the "beneficial use" of their labor which is why they have to pay tribute and have gone back into the bondage of Egypt. Socialism is the same as the Corban of the Pharisees that makes the word of God to none effect. Christ had the answer. https://preparingyou.com/wiki/Corban

Isaiah 5:13 Therefore my people are gone into captivity, because they have no knowledge: and their honourable men are famished, and their multitude dried up with thirst. 14 Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.

Ben Angel says:
I am really hoping BRICS will succeed and the dollar as reserve currency will be ended. No country should dominate others. First it will hopefully mean closing down the 800 plus military bases. Though countries now have to pay America for these plus sign a treaty saying American foreign policy will take precedence. Scary stuff.

A weaker dollar will make it harder for USA,to impose its ideology on the rest of the world.

My own prediction is that when USA falls, the global south will rise.

Ben Angel says:
I only hope it is the people orientated governments that gain power, and not capitalist orientated governments. That is to say not those that make capitalist rights more important than human rights.

Gregory to Ben Angel
Ben Angel the most fundamental Right of mankind is to own his labor and what he produce with his labor. Capitalism says that is right and true.

Under socialism that is never true. Under socialism some one can and will take away something produced by someone else and redistribute it to whom they think should have it.

Under capitalism you can redistribute wealth too.

That is done through fervent charity. But charity is choice.

All capitalism consists of is , "Capitalism is an economic system based on the private ownership of the means of production" It is not political, nor corporate.

So, is it bad that people own their labor, and what they produce with it? So, you are against that?

Under socialism your labor and your property does not belong to you but to the collective. You think the collective will protect you but it will not. It will bite and devour you.

Socialism does not function with the charity of love but it operates ultimately by force through "legal charity". https://preparingyou.com/wiki/Legal_charity

CRAPitalists

from Ben Angel(BA)
The wealthiest CRAPitalists will tell you that tax is theft. In reality they know that it is them who have control over the democratic system and in the real world they are the ones getting away with paying taxes. When they pass these down to the rest of us, they know we have little chance of avoiding these.

People don't generally become billionaires without being extremely ruthless and very devious.

Gregory to Ben Angel
Rather than converse in a rational way you just pretend to know the definition of words. When called out rather than admit the fallacy of your position you make up words like CRAPitalists. The reason men "have control over the democratic system" the people are slothful in what the should be doing. The people are to ignorant and weak to fix the problems of the world and that is the problem.

The people have gone the socialist way of Nimrod and Sodom.

"People don't generally become" a nation of slaves bound under tribute and taxation unless through the covetous practices of socialist programs they tried to enslave their neighbor because of their appetite for benefits at the expense of their neighbor.

Is Taxation theft
or
Is Taxation justice,
When you have not been just?
Those slothful in justice and mercy should be under tribute.

The truth is that people sealed their fate when they decide to obtain benefits at the expense of your neighbor by applying to men who call themselves benefactors but "exercise authority one over the other" for their free bread at the tables of the State.
From public schools to Social Security people sold themselves slaves, made themselves "merchandise" and "cursed their own children" through "covetous practices" which is a snare.
There is a solution but you would have to be willing "to think a different way" and seek a "different form of government" without being slothful in righteousness.

How are roads, sewers, electric, water systems, and military protection paid for?

In a pure republic they can be provided for by voluntary associations, cooperatives and occasionally commercial enterprises. Early public schools and roads were often built by the militia and privately funded through charity.
Inflation is the ultimate taxation that begins when you bite your neighbor to get free stuff but ends with you being devoured.
When asked what to do to fix the tax code my reply was address the most amoral elements of modern government:
End income tax on labor because that is a corvee system of bondage that "muzzles the ox" and enslaves mankind, end inheritance tax on families because it robs widows and orphans, but also end all legal charity by state taxation because it is a covetous practices that makes you merchandise and will destroy families, curse children of the '"masses" making the people perfect savages, and finally bringing in tyranny again.

https://preparingyou.com/wiki/Taxation

You call them what

from Ben Angel(BA)
I call them CRAPitalists because they talk CRAP. What if I was to say to you that the vast majority of people' who claim benefits will repay or have repaid that money many times over? The government are paying them with their own money.

While most billionaires whatever they tell you, transfer their taxes to those who do almost all of the hard work. Capitalists would not be billionaires without other people's very hard work.

If you took away the benefits altogether, people would be forced into working for even less money and even more hortible working conditions as they are in many African, Asian and South American countries. It makes it worse for almost EVERYBODY living there. Including the capitalists themselves who have a poorer customer base. Unless they are the capitalists exploiting those countries their resources and for low wages while making massive profits in the west. These countries economies are powerhouses making it possible for the west to live their western lifestyle. Yet they have to rely on charity???

Instead let's make the make working conditions more beneficial than the benefits. Abolish income taxes for the working and middle classes.

Gregory to Ben

because they talk CRAP'?

You call them that because you are angry and judgemental.

But that anger keep you in the dark so that you cannot see the truth, the real problem, nor the actual solution.

Socialism has always been sold with great swelling words of salvation but it always delivers the masses into bondage where the social bonds of a free society degenerate and tyrant rule and rob them and their children of a future.

2 Peter 2:18 "For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. 19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. 20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."

Of course "that the vast majority of people' who claim benefits will" pay many times over?

1 Samuel 8 tells you that. How they will take and take and take.

They are all bound in servitude which I have explained over and over how that came about.

Either you are not reading the links or just do not want to know the truth. Your anger and bitterness draws you into the dark.

Socialism is not your salvation it is the source of your sorrows and grievous sores. Democratic socialism is the disease.

Neither the people nor the government are paying any thing with "their own money". They only have debt notes.

https://www.preparingyou.com/wiki/Debt_Money

from Ben Angel(BA)

Most privately run businesses are undemocratic, authoritarian, oppressive, ruthless, demeaning places to work for.

Gregory to Ben

Most privately run businesses are not suppose to be democratic. That is why they are private. If you want a democratic business start a cooperative.

The should be authoritarian if they own the business. Go start your own business. You can do that even in pseudo capitalism. You can't do that in socialism.

All this just seems like more of your anger showing.

I tried to help you see what you are missing. I created a page of this conversation and I am adding links so I can use it on our next broadcast which welcomed callers.

Ben Angel says:

I lived in England when Thatcher got rid of everything socialist..People had literarlly dief fighting for those workers rights which were all taken away. The rest periods were taken away. Privstised industries offerered lower wages and worse conditions. The "I, me, myself!" attitude became fashionable

  Over 50% of people in Birmingham our 2nd largest city were unemployed. 2nd largest city. The top 100 corporations moved to places to abuse workers abroad and saw their incomes increase by 350% on average. The massive tax cuts for the wealthiest. So that they can can keep the rest of us enslaved. 
   The CRAPitalists said the minimum wage was a socialist idwa that would destroy the economy. It didn't. Quite the reverse, it boosted the economy.
 Why would I want to lusten to Milton Freidman who simply says let the economy do it's own thing it will sort itself out? What kind of economist is that, lol?
 I know it doesn't sound very Christian, but I want to run a bus over their head. I know coming from a good hearted person, that maybe makes it 50 times worse. Those thoughts certainly don't make me feel good.
 The type of socialists I lile are people like Jill Stein. She is also anti war.

Gregory Ben Angel I read Jill Stein platform. I am glad she will never make it.

You just seem to flee the light and you must just hate Jesus, who was a capitalist and said the socialim of the Pharisees made the word of God to none effect. Of course. The kind of reform offered by Jill Stein destroyed Rome.

I am going with the way of Christ.

Why don't you get together with other socialists and create your own businesses as cooperatives. You can actually vote your employees and provide all those benefits you want.

You are free to do that. There are more tax breaks with a cooperative than those corporations. https://preparingyou.com/wiki/The Way

_

== Breaking it down --

Rafi asks Ben Angel

Social bonds = free will sacrifice and charity Socialist bonds = forced contributions by the heavy hand of big government

I understand that socialism or any other system can be applied in multiple ways, but even a perfect application of socialism requires control and force by government.

Ben Angel do you agree with these 3 statements?

Rafi's purpose

Ben Angel please know that I'm not trying to trap you or win a debate here. My intention is to work with you and others to enter in the truth, solution and the light, for the benefit of all.

Ben Angel admits:

Rafi Allaouirdian I don't quite understand social bonds = free will sacrifice and charity.

I detest government, however Under capitalism we are being controlled by the heavy hand of both the government AND the corporations. It's only a smäller government for the wealthiest capitalists because they are the ones running the government.

   Socialism should be the counterweight to ensure the system works for the benefit of working families not just the capitalists, and only the wealthiest ones at that. I know today both parties work for the global capitalists. 
 When you say = do you mean it requires?

Ben Angel wishes:

Rafi Allaouirdian I wish I'd lived in Canada when you had your project. I have done voluntary work and enjoyed the freedom and variety far more than being wage slave. Maybe you have now found the life that works best for you, it seems as if life is going much better for you.

Rafi slows it down for Ben Angel

Ben Angel let's go a bit slower so we can be more productive in this conversation.

You said you don't understand my first statement, I can explain what I meant later.

How about the 2 other statements, do you agree or disagree with them?

Ben Angel admits:

Rafi Allaouirdian I think we both agree that forced controbutions are wrong for low and middle income groups. On the other hand it seems like a Robin Hood in reverse if I become a very wealthy man, and get away Scott free with paying any tax together with all my wealthy friends, yet those who work for me - who all contribute to the success of all our companies through their hard work - end up paying our share of taxes.

  We are both in agreement about not wanting to spend money on war and a massive military. 
 I believe the way to get people off benefits is to make the working conditions more favourable. 
  I'm sure we do actually have a lot in common. Your and my personal experiences of life under capitalism of course influences our opinions.

Rafi takes it back for Ben Angel

Ben Angel there might be an answer in there somewhere, but I like clarity.

Please, if you will, read the 2nd and 3rd statements and tell me if you agree or disagree and than you can give me your explanation. Help me understand you better.

Ben Angel confess

Capitalism is an extremely scary place to be when things go wrong and one problem leads to another.

But think

All health has ro be private, all roads would have private owned toill, Schools would demand payent.

The capitalists will demand a government to protect their private property and ever expanding land ownership with no rights of access.

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