Talk:Defense: Difference between revisions

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"do not take vengeance for vengeance belongs to the Lord"
"do not take vengeance for vengeance belongs to the Lord"
Do any of those allow for a Christian to run another through with a sword even in self defense?
Do any of those allow for a Christian to run another through with a sword even in self defense?
== Peter ==
“When Christ disarmed Peter, He disarmed every soldier.” – Tertullian, Apology
“However, if we must refer briefly to the difference between the constitution which was given to the Jews of old by Moses, and that which the Christians, under the direction of Christ’s teaching, wish now to establish, we would observe that it must be impossible for the legislation of Moses, taken literally, to harmonize with the calling of the Gentiles, and with their subjection to the Roman government; and on the other hand, it would be impossible for the Jews to preserve their civil economy unchanged, supposing that they should embrace the Gospel. For Christians could not slay their enemies, or condemn to be burned or stoned, as Moses commands, those who had broken the law, and were therefore condemned as deserving of these punishments; since the Jews themselves, however desirous of carrying out their law, are not able to inflict these punishments. But in the case of the ancient Jews, who had a land and a form of government of their own, to take from them the right of making war upon their enemies, of fighting for their country, of putting to death or otherwise punishing adulterers, murderers, or others who were guilty of similar crimes, would be to subject them to sudden and utter destruction whenever the enemy fell upon them; for their very laws would in that case restrain them, and prevent them from resisting the enemy. And that same providence which of old gave the law, and has now given the Gospel of Jesus Christ, not wishing the Jewish state to continue longer, has destroyed their city and their temple: it has abolished the worship which was offered to God in that temple by the sacrifice of victims, and other ceremonies which He had prescribed. And as it has destroyed these things, not wishing that they should longer continue, in like manner it has extended day by day the Christian religion, so that it is now preached everywhere with boldness, and that in spite of the numerous obstacles which oppose the spread of Christ’s teaching in the world. But since it was the purpose of God that the nations should receive the benefits of Christ’s teaching, all the devices of men against Christians have been brought to nought; for the more that kings, and rulers, and peoples have persecuted them everywhere, the more have they increased in number and grown in strength.” Origen, Against Celsus, chapter 26

Revision as of 08:06, 8 May 2019

Two swords

There are many false exegeses used by modern Christians to rationalize personal doctrines to fit more comfortably into the modern Churchianity eschatology instead conformity to Kingdom eschatology. Jesus preached the kingdom and appointed it to His called out.

Kingdom Eschatology is the study of the nature of the Kingdom of God. The kingdom is not where you go when you die because it is not only for the living[1] but it was and is at hand. Jesus was going to take the kingdom[2] from those who sat in the seat of Moses[3] but also appoint it in real time to those people he had called out.

Because people often focus on what they think about God instead of practicing Pure Religion and seeking the kingdom of God and the simplicity of the righteousness of God they often misinterpret the text. The myriad of false prophets and false teachers[4] of the world who do not know what the kingdom is like[5] only contribute to the problem.

Jesus' directive to His apostles and disciples to buy a sword is no exception. Was he talking to all the apostles and even others like the the appointed 70 and the 120 we find in the upper room? Or did he just want them to have a couple of swords to fulfill a prophecy from the Old Testament as suggested by some?

Let us examine the text:

"And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing." Luke 22:35

Jesus did not send them out alone but in pairs[6], what the Jews called Tanna and with the Holy Spirit. There were numerous conditions to follow meant to test the seventy disciples he chose to put their hand to the plough.[7] Jesus was getting lot of excuses from people who liked what he was saying but were putting off doing the work.

Before Jesus began his ministry there had been a great upheaval in the government of Judea. No one sat on the throne in Jerusalem. had of the Sanhedrin in protest. Menahem the Essene and many others walked out from the Sanhedrin The Chagigah documents that the Sanhedrin was illegitimatized when a majority "stalked out" to follow " the King's service, and there went forth [out] with him eighty pairs of disciples" with a royal covering.[8]

What he appears to have done was follow after The Way of John the Baptist and Jesus who was the highest son of David, the Messiah, the Christ, the king of the government of God which he took from the Pharisees and the apostate Jews[9] and appointed it to the Jews who eventually were called Christians.

Institutions of men change over time. There is a vast difference between the early Church and the Modern Church. There is also a difference between the institutions of Moses[10] and those professed and established by the Pharisees or Sadducees.

Jesus had chosen Seventy and sent them out by twos and they were learning to walk in faith. [11]

Luke 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. 37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.

‘AND HE WAS NUMBERED WITH TRANSGRESSORS

Some will try and tell people that Jesus wanted them to get a few swords to fulfill a messianic prophecy. They even say the word “transgressors” could be bandits, thieves, criminals, etc. It is true that the Greek word in the text is anomos [12] which in the Greek can mean "a violator of the law, lawless, wicked". But if this is the fulfillment of the prophecy From Isaiah 53[13] then the definition of the word needs to comply with the meaning of the Hebrew word for transgressors.[14]. The Hebrew word is pasha‘ which means "to rebel, transgress, revolt."

Jesus was counted by some as a revolutionary attempting to overthrow the legitimate government of Judea. He did come to take the seat of government away from those sitting in the seat of Moses as the legitimate king the kingdom of God. But the kingdom of God is not like the governments of the world that use force to exercise authority one over the other. There is no central bank[15] or professional standing army[16], no legislature making more and more laws.

Every elder of every family is king in his own home.[17] For the kingdom to function every elder must attend to the weightier matters as listed by Christ

Roman Emperors feared the “union and discipline of the Christian community networked in the heart of the Roman Empire.”[18]

Back in 66 B.C. Pompey the head of a Roman army had been invited to Judea to help settle a civil war between two brothers. Hyrcanus II and Aristobulus II were fighting over the Kingdom of God. One brother got the idea to invite Pompey and his legions for aid to settle this dispute.

Aristobulus had made the request to Rome seeking to use its might as a world police force. Pompey eventually sided with Hyrcanus and Pontious Pilate sided with Christ.[19]

The early Christians were recognized by Rome through the proclamation nailed to the cross by Pontius Pilate. When Jesus rose from the dead to stand again upon the earth, so did His Kingdom.

Jesus never told the people to get rid of their natural right and means by which to defend themselves. He did not rebuke the Roman Centurian nor did John the Baptist tell soldiers to lay down their weapons. They were told to "Do violence to no man".[20]. But doing violence is not the same as using the power of your arm or other tools to stop or restrain people from doing harm to others is simply attending to the weightier matters Doing violence is "to extort" unjustly "by intimidation". 



However you prefer it, the swords were stated by Jesus Himself to be for nothing more than fulfillment of prophecy. And in their context under Roman control, it is very likely (as I'm sure you'd agree) that there was a level of "gun control" instituted among the citizenry which would have maligned anyone but an official, as being a criminal if armed. Much like happens today, right? Much like has happened under most large governments throughout history.

So Jesus gives a reason. What is it again? To defend the helpless? For self defense? Oddly enough, that never comes into play.


Luke 22:38 And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.


  • “It is enough.”

So Jesus starts by saying that they didn't lack anything before when he sent them out with nothing. Not even a sword. Then He says, “But now, take some money belts, bags, and go get some swords too, *because this prophecy about me needs to be fulfilled.*”


when they returned, with only two swords

, he said it was enough. Surely Jesus didn’t intend for two swords to defend 12 men from a group of trained roman guards. Nor to "defend the helpless" (seriously where does that even come into the narrative?).


No. it was to fulfill a messianic prophecy. Depending on the English translation used, the word “transgressors” could be bandits, thieves, criminals, etc. However you prefer it, the swords were stated by Jesus Himself to be for nothing more than fulfillment of prophecy. And in their context under Roman control, it is very likely (as I'm sure you'd agree) that there was a level of "gun control" instituted among the citizenry which would have maligned anyone but an official, as being a criminal if armed. Much like happens today, right? Much like has happened under most large governments throughout history. So Jesus gives a reason. What is it again? To defend the helpless? For self defense? Oddly enough, that never comes into play. Do you know the difference between exegesis and eisegesis?

And now what about when Jesus says: "don't resist an evil person" "do not repay evil for evil" "turn the other cheek" "blessed are the peacemakers" "Do violence to no one" "love your enemies" "bless those who persecute you" "my kingdom is not of this world, if it were, my servants would fight for me" Or when Paul says in 1 Corinthians: " For the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh but have divine power to destroy strongholds." Or in ephesians: "for our fight is not against flesh and blood, but against the powers and principalities" Or in Romans: "do not take vengeance for vengeance belongs to the Lord" Do any of those allow for a Christian to run another through with a sword even in self defense?


Peter

“When Christ disarmed Peter, He disarmed every soldier.” – Tertullian, Apology

“However, if we must refer briefly to the difference between the constitution which was given to the Jews of old by Moses, and that which the Christians, under the direction of Christ’s teaching, wish now to establish, we would observe that it must be impossible for the legislation of Moses, taken literally, to harmonize with the calling of the Gentiles, and with their subjection to the Roman government; and on the other hand, it would be impossible for the Jews to preserve their civil economy unchanged, supposing that they should embrace the Gospel. For Christians could not slay their enemies, or condemn to be burned or stoned, as Moses commands, those who had broken the law, and were therefore condemned as deserving of these punishments; since the Jews themselves, however desirous of carrying out their law, are not able to inflict these punishments. But in the case of the ancient Jews, who had a land and a form of government of their own, to take from them the right of making war upon their enemies, of fighting for their country, of putting to death or otherwise punishing adulterers, murderers, or others who were guilty of similar crimes, would be to subject them to sudden and utter destruction whenever the enemy fell upon them; for their very laws would in that case restrain them, and prevent them from resisting the enemy. And that same providence which of old gave the law, and has now given the Gospel of Jesus Christ, not wishing the Jewish state to continue longer, has destroyed their city and their temple: it has abolished the worship which was offered to God in that temple by the sacrifice of victims, and other ceremonies which He had prescribed. And as it has destroyed these things, not wishing that they should longer continue, in like manner it has extended day by day the Christian religion, so that it is now preached everywhere with boldness, and that in spite of the numerous obstacles which oppose the spread of Christ’s teaching in the world. But since it was the purpose of God that the nations should receive the benefits of Christ’s teaching, all the devices of men against Christians have been brought to nought; for the more that kings, and rulers, and peoples have persecuted them everywhere, the more have they increased in number and grown in strength.” Origen, Against Celsus, chapter 26

  1. ↑ Luke 20:38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.
    Luke 9:60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.
  2. ↑ Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
  3. ↑ Matthew 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat:
  4. ↑ 2 Peter 2:1 "But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction."
  5. ↑ : Matthew 13:31 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:
    Matthew 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.
    Matthew 13:44 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.
    Matthew 13:45 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls:
    Matthew 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
    Matthew 13:52 Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.
    Matthew 20:1 For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard.
    Matthew 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
    Mark 4:30 And he said, Whereunto shall we liken the kingdom of God? or with what comparison shall we compare it? 31 It is like a grain of mustard seed, which, when it is sown in the earth, is less than all the seeds that be in the earth:32 But when it is sown, it groweth up, and becometh greater than all herbs, and shooteth out great branches; so that the fowls of the air may lodge under the shadow of it.33 And with many such parables spake he the word unto them, as they were able to hear it.34 But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.
    Luke 13:18 Then said he, Unto what is the kingdom of God like? and whereunto shall I resemble it? 19 It is like a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and cast into his garden; and it grew, and waxed a great tree; and the fowls of the air lodged in the branches of it.
    20 And again he said, Whereunto shall I liken the kingdom of God? 21 It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.
    Galatians 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
  6. ↑ TThe Zugot were pairs, also called Zugoth refers both to the two-hundred-year period (c. 170 BCE – 30 CE) during the time of the Second Temple in which the spiritual leadership of the Jews was in the hands of successions of "pairs" of religious teachers. Tanna were repeaters or teachers while the Amoraim were "interpreters".
  7. ↑ Luke 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.
  8. ↑ "17 MENAHEM WENT FORTH AND SHAMMAI ENTERED etc. Whither did he go forth? Abaye said: He went forth into evil courses.18 Raba said: He went forth to the King's service. Thus it is also taught: Menahem went forth to the King's service, and there went forth with him eighty pairs of disciples dressed in silk." Baraita, The Babylonian Talmud, Hagigah or Chagigah, 16b. "MISHNAH. JOSE B. JO'EZER39 SAYS THAT [ON A FESTIVAL-DAY] THE LAYING ON OF HANDS [ON THE HEAD OF A SACRIFICE]40 MAY NOT BE PERFORMED;41 JOSEPH B. JOHANAN SAYS THAT IT MAY BE PERFORMED.42 JOSHUA B. PERAHIA SAYS THAT IT MAY NOT RE PERFORMED; NITTAI THE ARBELITE43 SAYS THAT IT MAY BE PERFORMED. JUDAH B. TARBAI SAYS THAT IT MAY NOT BE PERFORMED; SIMEON A. SHETAH SAYS THAT IT MAY BE PERFORMED. SHEMAIAH SAYS THAT IT MAY BE PERFORMED; ABTALION SAYS THAT IT MAY NOT BE PERFORMED.44 HILLEL AND MENAHEM DID NOT DIFFER. MENAHEM WENT FORTH,45 SHAMMAI ENTERED.46 SHAMMAI SAYS THAT IT MAY NOT BE PERFORMED; HILLEL SAYS THAT IT MAY BE PERFORMED." Talmud - Mas. Chagigah 16a.
  9. ↑ Revelation 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
    Revelation 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
  10. ↑ Numbers 11:24 And Moses went out, and told the people the words of the LORD, and gathered the seventy men of the elders of the people, and set them round about the tabernacle. 25 And the LORD came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease.
  11. ↑ Luke 10:1 ¶ After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.
  12. ↑ 459 ~ἄνομος~ anomos \@an’-om-os\@ from 1 (as a negative particle) and 3551; adj AV-without law 4, transgressor 2, wicked 2, lawless 1, unlawful 1; 10
    1) destitute of (the Mosaic) law
    1a) of the Gentiles
    2) departing from the law, a violator of the law, lawless, wicked
  13. ↑ Isaiah 53:12 "Therefore will I divide him [a portion] with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
  14. ↑ 06586 ^עשׁפ^ pasha‘ \@paw-shah’\@ a primitive root [identical with 06585 through the idea of expansion]; v; AV-transgress 17, transgressor 9, rebelled 6, revolt 6, offended 1, transgression 1, trespassed 1; 41
    1) to rebel, transgress, revolt
    1a) (Qal)
    1a1) to rebel, revolt
    1a2) to transgress
    1b) (Niphal) to be rebelled against
  15. ↑ Golden calf
  16. ↑ : John 19:3 And said, Hail, King of the Jews! and they smote him with their hands.
  17. ↑ Leviticus 25:10 And ye shall hallow the fiftieth year, and proclaim liberty throughout [all] the land unto all the inhabitants thereof: it shall be a jubile unto you; and ye shall return every man unto his possession, and ye shall return every man unto his family.
  18. ↑ Comment on Gibbon’s Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, Rousseau and Revolution, Will et Ariel Durant p.801. fn 83 Heiseler, 85.
  19. ↑ Matthew 2:2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.
    Matthew 27:11 And Jesus stood before the governor: and the governor asked him, saying, Art thou the King of the Jews? And Jesus said unto him, Thou sayest.
    Matthew 27:29 And when they had platted a crown of thorns, they put it upon his head, and a reed in his right hand: and they bowed the knee before him, and mocked him, saying, Hail, King of the Jews!
    Matthew 27:37 And set up over his head his accusation written, THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS.
    Mark 15:2 And Pilate asked him, Art thou the King of the Jews? And he answering said unto him, Thou sayest it.
    Mark 15:9 But Pilate answered them, saying, Will ye that I release unto you the King of the Jews?
    Mark 15:12 And Pilate answered and said again unto them, What will ye then that I shall do unto him whom ye call the King of the Jews?
    Mark 15:18 And began to salute him, Hail, King of the Jews!
    Mark 15:26 And the superscription of his accusation was written over, THE KING OF THE JEWS.
    Luke 23:3 And Pilate asked him, saying, Art thou the King of the Jews? And he answered him and said, Thou sayest it.
    Luke 23:37 And saying, If thou be the king of the Jews, save thyself.
    Luke 23:38 And a superscription also was written over him in letters of Greek, and Latin, and Hebrew, THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.
    John 18:33 Then Pilate entered into the judgment hall again, and called Jesus, and said unto him, Art thou the King of the Jews?
    John 18:39 But ye have a custom, that I should release unto you one at the passover: will ye therefore that I release unto you the King of the Jews?
    John 19:19 And Pilate wrote a title, and put it on the cross. And the writing was, JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS.
    John 19:21 Then said the chief priests of the Jews to Pilate, Write not, The King of the Jews; but that he said, I am King of the Jews.
  20. ↑ Luke 3:14 And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse [any] falsely; and be content with your wages.
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