Talk:Commanded
Glen on a house church round table group posted:
Historical birds eye view of what has happened to the Christian body.
The Jewish Faith. High priest and congregation
Jesus. Brings the New Covenant
The Ekklesia. Every believer empowered by the Holy Spirit to be a minister.
Jesus is the only high priest.
Constantine. Brings back high priest and congregation. Roman Catholic Church
The Reformation. Pulls away from the pope, but keeps the priest and
congregation model. Priest is now called pastor.
2022. Doing our best to return to The Ekklesia
My first comment to this post within the round table group: Constantine did not bring back congregations. He actually consolidated congregations. He called the people to be baptized but not entirely to repent.
Jesus commanded that the people organize themselves in intimate congregations of tens. Each of those congregations also gathered in groups of ten congregations. All the ministers of those congregations of ten were servants and chosen by the people. They picked a minister too. This minister to ten ministers was called an overseer, some times translated bishop, because he oversees the daily ministration for a hundred families. Ambrose was one of the earliest bishops of Constantine's new kind of Church. http://preparingyou.com/wiki/Ambrose
Artis R... responded:
Gregory Williams I haven't seen anything in the bible about Christ nor his apostles organizing into groups of 10. Where do you get this from?
So my first response to Artis R... was: "good question Mark 6:39 "And he commanded them to make all sit down by companies upon the green grass. 40 And they sat down in ranks, by hundreds, and by fifties."
The word "companies" is repeated twice in original text. That Greek word is sumposion which like synagogues was a gathering of ten.
Plato in his "The Laws" endorses the benefits of the symposium as a means to test and promote virtue in citizens.
The Latin convivium according to Cicero and Seneca for the republican period both suggest that ten to twelve was the maximum number.
Tuetons, Celts, and many other nations gathered in the tens, hundreds, and thousands wait was the most practical way to create a "daily ministration" of "pure Religion". This pattern was still common into the 18th century. It was not popular with the church of Constantine. http://preparingyou.com/wiki/Commanded
Artis R... found this unacceptable to him:
Gregory Williams Christ commanding to have the people to sit down in groups of 100's and 50's so that food could be distributed to them does not support the idea that groups of ten hold some sort of spiritual virtue for the Body of Christ. If this were a standard for the N.T. then shouldn't the Book of Acts and the Epistles be full of examples and exhortation for this practice? Most of the references you site are from none biblical sources and from people who are outsiders to the Kingdom of God. Why should we care about their pagan superstitions? Virtue in the Kingdom of God comes through faith in Christ Jesus, we call it the 'fruit of the Spirit!' Restricting the size of a gathering is nowhere to be found in the scriptures as something to promote virtue. This is not exceptable to me.
I did not say nor even suggest that "groups of ten hold some sort of spiritual virtue". Dear Artis you said you "haven't seen anything in the bible about Christ nor his apostles organizing into groups of 10. And then you asked Where did I get this from?
The answer is at least Mark 6:39 and also Luke 9:14 For they were about five thousand men. And he said to his disciples, Make them sit down by fifties[3] in a company. 15 And they did so, and made them all sit down. Matthew 15:35 "And he commanded the multitude to sit down on the ground."
The gathering in tens is not mystical but there is a purpose to the netwoek generated by those gathering in a similar fashion.
We know that Israel gathered in these tens and synagogues were still counted as ten families at that time of Christ. It is seldom mentioned in the Biblical text because it was so commonly understood. The harshness of life and the dangers the people faced was all the discipline they needed.
and thousands of other nations gathered in these same patterns for several reasons. Judicially to save Moses from being warn out, bit also to keep track or take account of everyone in a hostile environment and of course to form a militia for national defense. But the most important was to establish a daily ministration to care for the needy of society.
As a shepherd I tend flocks on the high deserts. The sheep are not farm flock kept in fenced pastures but range sheep. They naturally organize themselves in small groups, around seven in each group. All those little groups stay together, not because I remind them but because nature in the form of the coyotes, bobcats, wolves and mountain lions remind them.
In thousands of acres of unfenced desert they could get separated and lost so they learn to stick together. A few generations in fenced pastures and farmers feeding them they would loose that gregarious instinct.
This is what happened to Israel while in the bondage of Egypt and was starting to happen to Jews and Romans under the Corban of the Pharisees and the welfare State of Rome.
What is nonsense is thinking it is important if you are gathering in groups of ten or 40 or 100 when the purpose of gathering has nothing to do with Christ nor his teachings.
Jesus did "command" his disciples to make 5000 Jewish men and their families to organize themselves in ranks upon ranks before there would be any distributions of food among the people.
Yes, they gathered "so that food could be distributed" but food was distributed after Pentecost for thousands more who were baptized. Acts 2:46 "And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,". Remember everyone who received the Baptism of Christ were put out of the religious welfare of the Pharisees setup under Herod. "These words spake his parents, because they feared the Jews: for the Jews had agreed already, that if any man did confess that he was Christ, he should be put out of the synagogue." John 9:22
We certainly see Paul and Barnabas bring relief all over the Roman Empire during the dearths and famines the swept across the landscape as Rome declined under corruption, inflation, and decay of the social bonds which degenerated under the welfare State of the Imperial Cult of Rome.
Without that well organized network of small intimate groups spread across the Roman Empire and beyond the daily ministration as we see being done in Acts would be impossible.
The only alternative social safety net was those offered by Caesar or Herod or other rulers but we know those systems of "welfare" are a "snare" and "make the word of God to none effect". Besides, Christ told is we were not to be like the men of other governments who called themselves "Benefactors" of the people but exercise authority taking from your neighbor to provide "benefits" for you. That would be unacceptable to Christ because that would be iniquity.
Jews had organized in groups of ten for centuries. People before Nimrod, Egyptians before Pharaoh, Tuetons in Germany, Brits etc. All for a reason of practicality.