Talk:Corban

"The second service, that of " the Corban " (oblation), or what we shall call the Communion Service, began by the priest vesting and washing his hands, after which the bread and wine (the latter mixed) were brought from the prothesis, or credence table, and placed on the altar."

On page 325 they talk about taking "part in the Corbano (Eucharist)..." PORTUGUESE DISCOVERIES DEPENDENCIES AND MISSIONS IN ASIA AND AFRICA pp358 Present State of the Syrian Christians. COMPILED BY THE REV ALEX J D D'ORSEY Cambridge Knight Commander of the Portuguese Order of Christ late Professor in Kin£s College London

"The question at hand is whether or not the recipient is worthy of the proferred alms. Only certain people are to be given alms, as laid out in the Gospel

Wyclif Medieval England

And it seems to me that Christ explains in Luke 14:12–13 the sense which[a corporal work of mercy] had in the Old Testament: ‘When you make a dinner or a supper,’ he says, ‘call not your friends but call the poor, the maimed, the lame and the blind.’ Whereby it seems to me that he specifies completely to whom ought to be given bodily alms. Whereby it seems right that the poor be tripled in the words following, so that a rich bishop or other potentate of this world might be blind, but it is not the sense of the Lord that a man ought especially to feed him with corporal alms. Therefore, Christ intends [this] with regard to the poor blind, and for a similar reason he understands [it] with regard to the poor lame and the poor deformed as far as the body. And, as it seems to me, only to those ought the faithful to give bodily alms, because Christ, the most wise, is generally giving the doctrine of his church. <Rev>Sermones

IV.13,, p. 105/9–23: “Et videtur mihi quod Christus Luce XIV o, 12, 13 exponit sensum quem habet in veteri testamento:Cum facis, inquit, prandium aut cenam, noli vocare amicos sed voca pauperes debiles, claudos et cecos. Ubi videtur michi quod specificat quibus complete debet darielemosina corporalis; ubi certum videtur quod oportet pauperes in verbis sequentibus triplicare, ut posito quod dives episcopus vel alius potentatus seculi sit cecus non est sensus Domini quod homo debet specialiter pascere ipsum elemosina corporali, ideo Christus intendit de paupere ceco, et conformi racione intelligit de paupere claudo et de paupere debili quoad corpus. Et (ut videtur mihi) solum illis debet fidelis tribuere elemosinam corporalem, quia Christus summe sapiens dans generaliter doctrinam sue ecclesie.”</Ref>

"Wyclif deals with several objections to this position. The first objection is that Jesus accepted alms, though he was neither lame, nor blind, nor maimed. Wyclif’s response is that there are four reasons that people feast one another, and that Christ feasted for these reasons. First, that he might be honoured; second, for a wedding; third, to increase friendship and charity; and fourth, so that he might feed the poor."

Pastoralia in John Wyclif’s Sermones

Controversial

Preaching in Later Medieval England Pastoralia in John Wyclif’s Sermones

Controversial

Preaching in Later Medieval England by Sean Andrew Otto https://tspace.library.utoronto.ca/bitstream/1807/43424/30/Otto_Sean_A_201311_PhD_thesis.pdf

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Tribute vs Offering

04503 ^החנמ^ minchah \@min-khaw’\@ from an unused root meaning to apportion, i.e. bestow; n f; {See TWOT on 1214 @@ "1214a"} : AV-offering 164, present 28, gift 7, oblation 6, sacrifice 5, meat 1; 211 : 1) gift, tribute, offering, present, oblation, sacrifice, meat offering :: 1a) gift, present :: 1b) tribute :: 1c) offering (to God) :: 1d) grain offering

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04504 החנמ minchah (Aramaic) min-khaw’ corresponding to 04503; n f; {See TWOT on 2836 }

AV-meat offering 1, oblation 1; 2

1) gift, offering 1a) oblation, offering (to God through representative) 1b) meal offering.

Sadducee / Essenes system of welfare

"Long before the time of the Herods, Sadducee priests with Essenes had instituted a system of welfare funds that is described in Cairo Damascus document, (CD) 14:12-16. While homeland Essenes in their villages practiced common property from which they cared for the indigent, those in the Diaspora were not close to each other, but they earned money. They drew on the ancient Israelite system of tithes - one-tenth of the produce given to priests. At the end of every month of 30 days they handed over the income of 3 days. The first day was for the priest, the next two for the Poor and Crippled, the categories of welfare recipients. Their numbers ensured that this was an effective system." http://www.peshertechnique.infinitesoulutions.com/WFW_Index/WFW_misc.html

"It should be added here that one big difference between the organization of the brethren in the towns and those of the 'monastic' setttlement is that new members were not required to surrender theri property. There was none of the voluntary communism found in IQS. On the other hand, where the desert setaries practised common ownership, those of the towns contributed to the assistance of their fellows in need. Every man able to do so was ordered to hand ober a minumum of two days' wages a month to a charitable fund, and fom it the Guardian and the judges distributed help to the orphans, the poor, the old and sick, to unmarried women withot support and to prisoners held in foreign hands and in deed of redemption (CD 14:12-16)"

"When two varieties of sectarian life are compared, numerous similalarities appear, especially in the light of 4QD and 4Qumran men lived together in seclusion; in the towns they were grouped in families, surrounded by non=members with whom they were in inevitable though exigious contact. Desert brotherhood kept apart from temple in Jerusalem; that of the towns participated in worship there. the 'Foundations' of the Quamran community had no counterparts in the towns; the judges of the towns had no counterparts at Quamran. the quamran Gaurdian was supported by a Council; the town Guardians acted independently. Unfaithful desert sectaries were sentenced to irrrevocable excommunication. or to temporary exclusion from the common life, or to suffer lighter penances; offenders from the towns were condemned to death (whether or not the verldict was calrried out) or committed to correctuve custody.""

An Introduction to the Complete Dead Sea Scrolls By Géza Vermès http://books.google.com/books?id=Cdnn0yVsge4C&pg=PA110&lpg=PA110&dq=CD+14:12-16+dead+sea+scrolls&source=bl&ots=hDfvBoQ3do&sig=HwSBqxje1-ywGbfIVE38VYpTL54&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ewkyVKbKLIypogTLgIHYAg&ved=0CCYQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=CD%2014%3A12-16%20dead%20sea%20scrolls&f=false

letter on tax

In response to the letter bellow:

The message below is incorrect in its interpretation of events and the way tribute works. It is not a "careful and thoughtful reading of this scripture " but wishful thinking.

First, the reason the silver denarii had Caesars image on it was because they actually belonged to Caesar who loaned them into circulation through the creation of government projects and would be recollected through taxes or tribute with interest or fees for the "use" of his roads and harbors or coliseums etc..

Secondly, the use of Caesars image was a violation of the Pharisees private interpretation of idolatry.

But there was another tribute tax which was used to fund the Corban of the pharisees and Rome. Rome gave free bread and other welfare in Judea. If you were registered in the Corban scheme of Herod and the Pharisees you owed another tax. This was the Corban that made the word of God o none effect and caused the people to do no more ought for their parents.

This was a social security welfare system.

Rome provided free bread and circuses and the protection of its Pax Romana and, in return, faithful allegiance. A reciprocating tithing or tax was due the Soter of Rome.

All Jews of Judea did not hate Rome. Many loved and desired their protection, generosity, and social security; besides, they were good for business. There were rebels, as always. There was corruption, as always. The Caesars were the protector of their peace, the benefactors of their welfare. He was one of the fathers of the earth that people look to to provide for them.

The Emperor (Emperator, emperatoris m. commander in chief. Collins L.E. Dict. ‘62.), the commander-in-chief of the multinational military force that kept the peace throughout the world. Caesar was a god of His world and the table he set before the people which they did freely eat despite God's warnings.

• “When thou sittest to eat with a ruler, consider diligently what is before thee: And put a knife to thy throat, if thou be a man given to appetite. Be not desirous of his dainties: for they are deceitful meat....

Eat thou not the bread of [him that hath] an evil eye, neither desire thou his dainty meats: For as he thinketh in his heart, so [is] he: Eat and drink, saith he to thee; but his heart [is] not with thee. The morsel [which] thou hast eaten shalt thou vomit up, and lose thy sweet words.” (Proverbs 23:1,2,3... 6, 8)

• “The annual Temple-tribute was allowed to be transported to Jerusalem, and the alienation of these funds by the civil magistrates treated as sacrilege. As the Jews objected to bear arms, or march, on the Sabbath, they were freed from military service. On similar grounds, they were not obliged to appear in courts of law on their holy days. Augustus even ordered that, when the public distribution of corn or of money among the citizens fell on a Sabbath, the Jews were to receive their share on the following day. In a similar spirit the Roman authorities confirmed a decree by which the founder of Antioch, Seleucus I. (Nicator, [d Ob.280 B.C.]) had granted the Jews the right of citizenship in all the cities of Asia Minor and Syria which he had built, and the privilege of receiving, instead of the oil that was distributed, which their religion forbade them to use, [e Ab. Sar ii. 6] an equivalent in money. [Jos.Ant. Xii. 3. 1]. These rights were maintained by Vespasian and Titus even after the last Jewish war, not with standing the earnest remonstrances of these cities. No wonder, that at the death of Caesar the Jews of Rome gathered for many nights, waking strange feelings of awe in the city, as they chanted in mournful melodies their Psalms around the pyre on which the body of their benefactor had been burnt, and raised their pathetic dirges." Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah Chapt. V

If you have the government number that allows you to eat at their table and have taken any benefits with that number from employment to the care of your parents or public education then you are probably under tribute obligation and owe the tax. Desiring any benefits at the expense of your neighbor are covetous practices that curse children with debt and entangle them in the elements of the world. Most people owe tribute to Caesar because their parents have cursed them with those covetous practices of applying for benefits at the expense of their neighbor.

• “And their ownership was based upon the truth that if you have not your own rations you must feed out of your Tribe’s hands: with all that that implies. ” Rudyard Kipling A Book of Words, XXIV “Independence”.

Once one generation goes the way of the Nimrod and create the Yoke of bondage it will pass from generation to generation like it did in Egypt.

The only way back is to go the way of John the Baptist and Jesus the Christ and set the table of the Lord, which is the Corban of righteousness.

Are you building a Living Network with a daily ministration through Pure Religion and the Perfect law of liberty?

• “Government is not reason; it is not eloquence; it is force, like fire,

it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master.”

When government collects taxes by force simply because your neighbors want more benefits, more free bread, more medical assistance, more gratuities, does everyone not take part in the violence?

• “And thou shalt take no gift: for the gift blindeth the wise, and perverteth the words of the righteous.” (Exodus. 23: 8)

Until people stop being slothful in the ways of God they will remain in bondage to the Fathers of the world.

Proverbs 12:24 "The hand of the diligent shall bear rule: but the slothful shall be under tribute.

The warnings are explicit throughout the Bible:

• "Thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor with their gods." Exodus 23:32

But People and their parents have.

No one would owe Tribute if people had been caring for the welfare Link titleof one another through daily tithe in a network of love and charity.

They have become a surety for debt because of their covetous actions and sloth and that of their parents. The debt all governments have created is a snare and a trap and you cannot make that go away with wishful thinking.

You cannot just set yourself free.

You must Repent and seek the Kingdom of God and His righteousness.

Use this Network to find and Join a congregation of record (CORE)and set the table of the Lord with your freewill offerings in hope by faith and charity.

Teach your Minister to be good servants in the Kingdom.

Seek to do the will of Christ and the Father in heaven.

• “…Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, .... Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.” (Mtt 6:9,13)

Don't pretend or play church, Be the Church, Be the Kingdom.

In the meantime be friends with the unrighteous Mammon.

Pay you Tale of bricks but glean in the field for your benefits.

Gregory

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Re: [HHC TransTasman] Who's Who

Hi Mark, it has been a while.

I guess there are a few things to be said.

With regard to rendering to Caesar I think you have not understood the passage.

That passage starts with the Pharisee's and Herodian's coming to trap Jesus. These two groups were enemies who came together to attempt to destroy what they perceived as a mutual threat to their power - Jesus. Herod was King but his rule was only at the behest of the Roman occupiers. I like to think of the Herodian's as being the Vichy government of their day. (The Vichy government was the French government during WW2 that collaborated with the German army of occupation. They were seen as traitors by most frenchmen).

To be effective their trap needed two jaws, the Pharisee's were one and the Herodian's were the other.

Clearly then if Jesus said DO NOT pay tribute (and note here the correct translation is tribute and not tax, and further that tribute has connotations of rendering honour and servitude) to Caesar the Herodian's would run like dogs to report this to their Roman masters and Jesus would be arrested.

So one arm of the trap is explained.

It must be equally clear that if Jesus said DO pay tribute to Caesar that this would somehow land him in trouble with the Jews. How? Simply that every Jew listening to Jesus ministry would walk away if He instructed them to pay tribute to Caesar because they all knew the law. What law? You shall honour no other God but Me. (Remember Caesar proclaimed himself a god). The Pharisee's and all the Jews knew they should not be paying tribute to Caesar. If this was not so then the second jaw of the trap is of no effect and there is no trap. You see if Jews believed it was acceptable in God's sight to pay tribute to Caesar then where is their point of contention?

So Jesus answered in a riddle. He called for a denarii - a coin made of silver. Then asked whose superscript was on the coin. The answer - Caesar's. So render to God what is God's and render to Caesar what is Caesar's.

Before explaining the riddle lets jump to the end of the passage.

Scripture says the Pharisee's and the Herodian's were AMAZED at His answer. Further both groups realised they had no complaint to bring against Him.

So did Jesus really say "pay them both"? Is that AMAZING? I personally find it less than amazing. In fact its underwhelming and a little perfunctory. It's probably the lame answer I would have given in that situation.

The truth is everyone expected Jesus to say DO NOT pay Caesar. And indeed that is exactly what He did say. But He said it in code.

So what is the riddle? Jesus told you what belongs to Caesar, an inscription. A nothing. An image. A scratch. Therefore render him nothing.

But as to the substance of the coin, that was silver, and that belongs to God. "All the gold and all the silver are Mine declares the Lord". Its not a perfect quote from scripture but the sentiment is correct. Look it up.

And THAT is why they were AMAZED. Jesus told them to give Caesar the nothing he deserved but he did it in such a way that when His words were reported they would not be able to be construed such as to allow the Romans to bring a charge against Him.

Think it through. What trap is there if the correct answer is "pay them both"? What amazement is there in such an answer? A careful and thoughtful reading of this scripture reveals the truth, just as it reveals the superficial study given this passage by all those who have stood at a pulpit and preached this passage is instructing you to "pay both".

Second I would like to stay on the list. :)

Regards, Tony

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