Talk:Churches

Abraham, Moses, John the Baptist and Jesus and the early Church advocated a Daily ministration for the needy of the Christian community that was dependent on Charity only and it was not like the system of Corban of the Pharisees nor the free bread of Rome. It was their Pure Religion that brought them into a Christian conflict with Public religion and the Covetous Practices of the World.

Wrong Ways

There can be more than one way to do things right but there are always more wrong ways than right.

"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

"Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?" Matthew 7:13-16

Back in 2015 someone started to present an alternative to the plan off Christ as presented by a network of ministers here at Preparingyou.com

We examined the work and found the author's approach very short sighted and incorrect in their application of the scripture especially in the context of history.

It is missing some of the most practical aspects of the networking systems of Abraham, Moses and Jesus who was the Christ that made their followers so effective and eventually got the government of Judea and the citizens who did not accept Christ in so much trouble.

We covered just some of the basic problems with this document titled "An Approach to Church Government" in several ways at the time.

We did present notes in a Google doc much of which we repeat below. We also spoke of these points in numerous audio shows.

•   http://www.hisholychurch.net/audio/150704Organize01lr.mp3
•   http://www.hisholychurch.net/audio/150704Organize02lr.mp3
•   http://www.hisholychurch.net/audio/150704Organize03frp4.mp3
•   http://keysofthekingdom.info/KOK-150711.mp3
•   http://www.hisholychurch.net/audio/150711Organize06frp6-9.mp3
•   http://www.hisholychurch.net/audio/150718Organize07FA9-10.mp3

We also updated more detail information in dozens of webpages concerning some of these very issues, many of which we will link to here, so that people can do their own study.

Mysteries

Through all this we should bear in mind that Jesus did not reveal all the details of how and why the kingdom operates in certain ways. He kept many mysteries secret but only referred to them in parables, allegories and metaphors.

The most predominant form of government throughout history has been based on voluntary systems composed of a Network of what was called the tens, hundreds, and thousands. Which formed a sort of wheels within wheels. The original Israel, the Teutons and many others societies all did this including the early Church which did this to create a Daily ministration in order to practice Pure Religion which was the Corban of Christ.

In the documentation of Steven Americo (aka James, Mark James) personal view entitled An Approach to Church Governance he admitted when he met with a few of our people that “No one could draw a flowchart for me.”

We have generated several images that represents the type of network that God offers his people but we would not refer to the tens as a “flowchart”.Other images drawn concerning the tabernacle and tents of the congregations in the ancient Israel camp is also allegorically defining a flow Chart of sorts.

The Kingdom of God is from "generation to generation" and not just from congregation to congregation through Levites and ministers. The Feasts made this possible as families united by marriage and friendship and meeting the challenges of a peculiar people who live by faith, hope and charity through a perfect law of liberty. The flow of charity which is the flow of the blood of Christ moves from family to family and not just through the arteries and veins provided by a network of ministers like the Church in the wilderness and the early Church.

The Kingdom of God is from "generation to generation" and not just from congregation to congregation through Levites and ministers. The Feasts made this possible as families united by marriage and friendship and meeting the challenges of a peculiar people who live by faith, hope and charity through a perfect law of liberty. The flow of charity which is the flow of the blood of Christ moves from family to family and not just through the arteries and veins provided by a network of ministers like the Church in the wilderness and the early Church.

That flow is also not based on mathematical or geometric flowcharts, but is the result of real relationships.

We also have numerous flowcharts of sorts in “The Structure of the Church” video. However in the final analyses we know that the flow within the Kingdom of God is the flow of love or charity through the hearts and minds of the people.

The connections within the kingdom may manifest certain patterns but ultimately the body of the community and the Church is generated by the Holy Spirit and not superimposed by study nor diagrams.

Paperwork

He admits that he left without 'grasping the validity of our paperwork'.

Our paperwork is just a written witness of what takes place and we have many articles and free books that lays all this out. If he really wanted to understand then he should have joined with us and worked with us like the early Church did.

There are very detailed reason why we have organized in the way we have that are directly the result of understanding the trials and tribulations of the early Christian conflict with Rome. While a great deal of information is shared in written material we do not always connect the dots for the same reason Jesus kept some things a mystery.

"And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:" Galatians 2:4

Freeing gold and land

He talks about “gold coin in the hand of a thief” and a year of Jubilee and how he thinks land “thru a church’s coverture can become tax free or immune, then you and the property may be freed from the burdens of such tax and the potential loss of the land for failure to pay it “

Of course Jesus talks about people repenting and seeking righteousness, forgiving and giving and generally coming together in love in charity. He seems to want to blame others but the Bible makes it clear that we are snared by our covetousness and sloth. So until one forgives and gives while diligently seeking righteousness there is no and should be no Jubilee because there is no repentance.

If people tell me they repented I often look for the fruit of repentance and ask them

People followed Abraham, Moses, John the Baptist and Jesus. The altars of clay and stone was a way to create the social bonds of free people. The levites led the Israelites. And the early Church followed Christ and His Way, which was The Way, and advocated a Daily ministration that was dependent on Pure Religion through Fervent charity only. This was the Corban of Christ which was not like the system of Corban of the Pharisees nor of Rome or the systems of FDR and LBJ.
The church lost "the way" when it abandoned the practice of "pure Religion" while claiming to be the Church established by Christ. The people developed an appetite for the "wages of unrighteousness" from "public religion" in the days of Constantine. Those new Christians that often failed to fully repent degenerated the moral character of society with the masses of "instant christians".
That new religion of the emperor introduced a new faith with his apostate church replacing the doctrine of Jesus with the "doctrines of men", the Holy Spirit with emotion, the truth with the speaking of "great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage."
They had a form of godliness but denied the power thereof.

Where is your religion

• Where do you find the Daily ministration of the early Church, the Pure Religion of James and the Corban of Jesus?

• Are you following The Blessed Strategy of Christ like the Early Christians?

• Are you following The Way through Love of one another or the way of the world and the Fathers of the earth?

• Do you seek the benefits of bankrupt nations, or do you forgive and seek the benefits of Christ's appointed Kingdom?

• Do you only gather for the comfort it gives you, or do you gather to benefit others?

• Christ came to serve, not be served. Do you desire to be served, or are you coming in His name and according to His character to serve others?

If we desire His Grace but we only love those who love us, then there is no Grace because it is clear we do not really believe in Him.

If we do not Repent of our Covetous Practices and are not diligently gathering together in Free Assemblies of Love for all to provide for one another in Charity according to the Perfect law of liberty then we have nothing according to Paul. According to Luke 6:32 if we only love those who love us there is no "Grace". Christ also said if you do not Forgive neither will the Father forgive you.

It is not enough to hate the deeds of the workers of iniquity, but we must return to Thy first love and thy first work. To break the yoke, we need to return to the ways of righteousness spoken of in Isaiah 58 which are the ways of Christ and the early Church. And His yoke is light for it is carried by our love of one another.

Abraham, Moses, John the Baptist and Christ all created Networks of charity to care for the true needy of society without force which is how they were able to help set people free. Do you gather with His Church to attend to the Weightier matters as Christ said?

• Are you gathering in a Network of righteousness?

• Do you come to love others or just be loved?

• Are your Congregations' gatherings fruitful enough so that no one has to pray to Benefactors who exercise authority one over the other?

• Does anyone in your Free Assemblies have to apply to the Fathers of the earth, or seek their many benefits?

Early Christians found themselves in conflict with these systems of social welfare because they made the word of God to none effect. Christians had repented of their covetous nature when they received the Baptism of Christ. They heard and became Doers of the word not hearers only.

Remember Proverbs 12:24, "The hand of the diligent shall bear rule: but the Slothful shall be under Tribute."

We know that liberty under God is not for the covetous who are Biting one another but it is also not for the slothful. If we are not congregating together in free assemblies bound together in a broad network by faith, hope, and charity alone according to the perfect law of liberty then we are not truly seeking the Kingdom of God nor His righteousness...

Lines of authority

He does eventually talk about sacrifice and service but also "lines of authority”, submission to courts, rules and fines. To what avail?

Jesus talked about not exercising authority one over the other.

The line of authority was simple. Christ appointed apostles who appointed others. The only thing you have authority over is yourself, your choices and what is freely given you.

A free society is a self disciplined society.

What part of Freewill offerings, Free assemblies, and the perfect law of liberty does he not get?

When someone says “fixed succession of office-bearers”... I am puzzled what they mean.

An order is a voluntary brotherhood with God as the father. It is also an altar of stones just like each congregation is an Altar of earth. Together they are altars of Clay and Stone.

The stones are not hewn but they hold all things in common as joint heirs. They do not exercise authority one over the other which means no hewn stones by regulation. So how does one enforce these principles without exercising authority one over the other.

Is it by mutual recognition, regular flow of charity through a network of tens where everyone and every level of congregations cause a loving flow of support?

Shem was Melchizedek. He was the righteous king of peace and the high priest of the descendants of Noah. He past nine generations by blessing Abraham with his office.

http://www.preparingyou.com/wiki/Melchizedek.

Was Israel in Egypt free to choose to leave Egypt?

If you are in debt are you free to cancel the debt?

Why did Moses say pay the tale of bricks and Jesus say pay  Caesar what is Caesar’s and be friends with the unrighteous mammon?

Have we taken benefits?

Are they a snare?

Are you merchandise?

There is a leap that because someone says they are children of God that they can nullify debt, oaths, surety etc. Besides that is not the spirit of Christ.

Matthew 5:41 "And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain."

“Society means ‘a number of people united by mutual consent”.

Mutual consent to what?

Can you undo that consent?

If you consent to be a surety for debt and then change your mind after the government borrowed funds by your consent can you just opt out?

There is a remedy.

Repent and seek the kingdom.

Start gathering to give and forgive not just get and get out.

Other Issues

A congregation is not an association but a free assembly practicing pure religion and worshiping at separate or sacred altars of charity and love.

What “ecclesiastical government and its courts”?

The Elders of each family comes together in voluntary courts. The ministers in a network only have the power of acquittal. They do not have he power of ruling judges or lawmakers, but are titular.

The word disciple means student. After a student learns he may be appointed, not by the people but by Christ. It is up to the people to determine if that appointment is true through their recognition and support. At that point recognition and support they may individually bear witness as to their belief that  the individual is appointed or anointed of God. This recognition gives a covering of authority over that which is given.

The ordained ministers are separate from the people and are not a creation or the result of an appointment of or by the people. But are establishe by two or more witnesses which is as scriptural as it gets.

Again, there is no stolen coin. There is covetous and slothful  practices by ours and our parents which has made a us merchandise . This author deflects from the truth and draws people away from what they really must do.

If “we deliberate, determine and act to create a local body” then the Church is a creation of the people and if the people are entangled in the “world” then the church in the “world” is entangled by the nature of the people and their limited capacity.

This is why the Church is created by Christ and the people with two or more witness merely testify to their belief that it is so. There is no appointment by the people or the church is not separate.

They can elect but not appoint.

There seems to be a dangling seductive thread that the people can become free by association with this imagined free ecclesia. They become free by repentance and diligent pursuit and  application of righteousness and the subsequent grace. Not by joining the Church. The members of the Church body become free by becoming bond servants of Christ.

So how is this “local body” incorporated into His “pre-existing body”?

These last two paragraphs are not only unclear but fundamentally reversed and was one of the places that seem convoluted. The apostles were an order so the order is the ecclesia when it meets the criteria and qualifications of Christ. The body of Christ is the order which is a foreign corporation to the “world”, other governments” under the directive of Christ.

A “legal existence” is a bound existence and the legal existence of an order is bound to Christ. It belongs to Christ who is its master and it cannot serve another master. Therefore its members, bond servants,  must waive their rights to any benefit of any other master, hence the need for a vow of poverty to brake the bands which have connected them to another.

his “Statements of Jurisdiction” sure sounds like something more than yes for yes and no for no and must certainly come of evil.

Did someone just elect the Church as king and ruling judge?

This jurisdictional power and authority of the Church and its courts are supposedly nullifying all the links to the jurisdiction of the world, trumping all those jurisdictions by its own exercising authority. This is all done by a church body created by the people even though Jesus clearly states when he created His Church that we, his ministers, are not to be like the governments of the other nations that exercise authority one over the other.

I cannot go on...

We already have the Free Church Report.

It gives a detail formula based on what Christ said and reviewed in light of modern law.

What is this “Approach to Church Government” offering that is an improvement?

What  does “Approach to Church Government” offer that is different or seemingly more correct or accurate?

Does it offer any explanation of what or why it is bringing value to the Church format?

Rather than giving me long things to go through which are often vague in critical areas or convoluted in others why not show where this other work makes an actual valid critique.

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Levite replaced

Another document, "Is Charity Administered through the Levitical Priesthood?", was brought to our attention and circulated within the network which evidently is trying to support this alternate church scheme.

This other document has been seen over and over with slight changes an continuous additions. It still contains numerous flaws by conclusions based on false and erroneous interpretations of history, the scriptures and human nature and especially the nature of the Kingdom of God and certainly the righteousness of God.

At the end of that document they state “We have been prayerfully considering another way of organizing Yah's people that seems to have a solid Scriptural foundation. We are thoroughly examining it before we agree to it. If you would like to examine it also, please let us know, and we will share it with you. Yah bless.”

Evidently this other way is the same document rejected for all the reasons above and more when it was presented back in 2015 and can be seen at kingdomgov.net as the Free Introductory Version, An Approach to The Priest-King's Governance for His Ecclesia - Intro. Ver. 0.9f - Final Rough Draft 01-04-17.pdf ( 2.2 MB.   Print 'Actual Size' ) by Steven.

Much of the assumptions contained in this document have been addressed in subsequent articles and broadcasts but basically it hinges upon a quote from its title "Is Charity Administered through the Levitical Priesthood?"

"Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again." Luke 6:38

Did Jesus do away with the Leviticle preisthood or did he merely take it from those who were not bearing fruit and appoint it to those who would do the job as it was meant to be?

Jerome believed that "Bishops, presbyters(Elder) and deacons occupy in the church the same positions as those which were occupied by Aaron, his sons, and the Levites in the temple." Jerome, Ep. 146

What was the job of the Levites. There were still priests and kings in eah home or the tents of each congregation but the Levites were a national priesthood. Most charity was between or within families but a national system of charity required a national priesthood to be the FEMA of the nation in time of need and to help individual congregations during calamity and catastrophe. That is kingdom.

Rabbi Elazar said: Doing righteous deeds of charity is greater than offering all of the sacrifices, as it is written: "Doing charity and justice is more desirable to the Lord than sacrifice" (Proverbs 21:3). Babylonian Talmud, Sukkah 49

Jesus rebuked some of the Pharisees for their position on Corban in Mark Chapter 7, also Matthew Chapter 15. By neglecting their filial duty to the parents because they contributed to the treasury of Corban thinking that relieves people of their natural responsibility to support their parents.

The phrase al-Qurbaan al-Muqaddas (القربان المقدس; The Holy Korban) is the usual term used to translate the term "Eucharist" into Arabic among Arab Christians. The Eucharist and serving the tents of the congregation was always about charity and thanksgiving and tithing was always a part of that process.

• "Many books of the prophets in the Hebrew Bible, such as the Book of Isaiah and Book of Jeremiah, spoke out against those Israelites who brought forth sacrifices but did not act in accord with the precepts of the Law. The Prophets disparaged sacrifices that were offered without a regeneration of the heart, i.e., a determined turning from sin and returning to God by striving after righteousness (Hosea 14:1-2, Joel 2:13, Micah 6:6-8). At the same time, prophets stressed the importance of offerings combined with justice and good even as they taught that offerings were unacceptable unless combined with heartfelt repentance and good deeds. Malachi, the last prophet in the Hebrew Bible, emphasized that the goal of repentance is not to end sacrifices, but to make the offerings fit for acceptance once again (Malachi 3:3-4). Similarly, the Book of Isaiah despite disparagement of sacrifices without justice, portrays sacrifice as having a role complementary with prayer in a universalistic eschatology (Isaiah 56:1; 6-7)." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korban#In_the_Prophets

The system from which the majority of the modern Christians seek the benefits of the welfare State is based on forcing their neighbor to pay for what they want, which is covetousness and opposed to the ways of God and Christ from the beginning. If anyone's parents collected Social Security from a bankrupt system, pressing that system farther into debt, the action is the sin of Corban Jesus spoke against like did John because it was by force rather than charity.

That is the point. We actually encourage everyone to not merely home teach their children but help one another do it and do the same in meats as John said.

There is nothing brand new about our teachings except we put it in the context of what people are actually doing in real societies both old and new.

Just as an example since you brought it up:

We never see the word Corban appear in the Old Testament as "Corban" either but we do see it and its root as "offering" hundreds of times. We never see the word charity in the Old Testament either.

Corban was the word for "sacrifice" and "offering" and the word sacrifice is spoken of in the New testament over 40 times, offering and gift over 60 times, charity and love over a hundred times. Why?

Because they are all talking about the same thing. They are all talking about freewill offerings given so that when we love one another it takes a substantive form in the real world.

Around 150 AD Justin Martyr wrote his Apology to Antonius Pius the emperor to explain how Christians took care of their free bread since they did not apply to the Emperor for his free bread or wine or cheese or anything else they distributed in their welfare system...

“And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need.” Chapter LXVII

A second question might be who is that priesthood today and what are they supposed to be doing.

The Pharisees had made the “word of God to none effect” by their ordinances which forced the contributions of the people and brought them back into the bondage of Egypt. In Matthew 21 Jesus said he was going to take the “Kingdom of God”, a present reality, away from them and it would be “given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.”

The Pharisee's socialist systems of compelled offerings was set up by leaders who called themselves “benefactors”, but exercised authority one over the other,which was forbidden by Jesus in Luke 22:25, 29 :

• “And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors. But ye [shall] not [be] so...” [See also Mtt. 20:25, Mk 10:42.]

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"Bishops, presbyters(Elder) and deacons occupy in the church the same positions as those which were occupied by Aaron, his sons, and the Levites in the temple." Jerome, Ep. 146

• Acts 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and [with] our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

Here Acts 7 is drawing parallels between the the institutions of Moses and even Abraham and what the Church established by Jesus Christ was doing in those early days. The Levites were called the Church in the Wilderness because they were called out of the walled-in camp of the Golden calf by Moses to restore and keep the people as a free nation under God.

The Church in the Wilderness were the called out Levites who served the tents of the people much like the early Church appointed by Jesus who was the Christ, anointed king of Judea. The people provided Breeches for these ancient ministers of a nation without rulers, no king. Those breeches of the Levites were symbolic of a covering which made them titular leaders of one of the earliest pure republics in recorded history.

How their government operated in a practical way will give you a better understanding of the Church and the Kingdom of God and His righteousness.

As we have said, among the Levites there was a unique political structure with corporate elements to the formation of its society. Early Israel was classified in history as a Republic.

Were there parallels between the Church in the Wilderness and the Church called out and appointed by Christ to serve the people?

Jesus called His Church to be one form of government so that His followers would and could be free souls under God.

Edward Gibbons in his Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire identified the early Church as a "viable Republic" and early American churches were called "embryonic republics" by historians.

The Corban of that early Church was not like the Corban of the Pharisees. Nor is it like the Corban of the Modern Christian who depend far more on the Benefactors who exercise authority one over the other than upon ministers an congregations who live by faith, hope and charity through the perfect law of liberty.

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"According to rabbinical teachings, which dominated even during the existence of the Temple (Pes. viii. 8), Baptism, next to circumcision and sacrifice, was an absolutely necessary condition to be fulfilled by a proselyte to Judaism (Yeb. 46b, 47b; Ker. 9a; 'Ab. Zarah 57a; Shab. 135a; Yer. Kid. iii. 14, 64d). "

"Baptism was practised in ancient (Ḥasidic or Essene) Judaism, first as a means of penitence, as is learned from the story of Adam and Eve, who, in order to atone for their sin, stood up to the neck in the water, fasting and doing penance—Adam in the Jordan for forty days, Eve in the Tigris for thirty-seven days (Vita Adæ et Evæ, i. 5-8)."

"The Baptism of the proselyte has for its purpose his cleansing from the impurity of idolatry, and the restoration to the purity of a new-born man. This may be learned from the Talmud (Soṭah 12b) in regard to Pharaoh's daughter, whose bathing in the Nile is explained by Simon b. Yoḥai to have been for that purpose. The bathing in the water is to constitute a rebirth, wherefore "the ger is like a child just born" (Yeb. 48b); and he must bathe "in the name of God"—"leshem shamayim"—that is, assume the yoke of Gcd's kingdom imposed upon him by the one who leads him to Baptism ("maṭbil"), or else he is not admitted into Judaism (Gerim. vii. 8). For this very reason the Israelites before the acceptance of the Law had, according to" 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia Philo on the Decalogue ("De Decalogo," ii., xi.), as well as according to rabbinical tradition, to undergo the rite of baptismal purification (compare I Cor. x. 2, "They were baptized unto Moses [the Law] in the clouds and in the sea").

The Jewish religion requires that male and female conversion candidates to immerse themselves in a ritual bath called a mikveh. Jewish baptism by immersion in ancient times was to be performed in the presence of witnesses (Yebam. 47b). The person being baptized made special preparations includiong a fresh profession of his faith before the designated "fathers of the baptism" (Kethub. 11a; Erub 15a).

"Baptism did not start with John the Baptist. It was the practice of the Jews to baptise converts as much as five centuries before John the Baptist was born. John was simply building on what was already established. ... Some time between 200 to 500 years before the birth of Jesus and John, baptism became a part of the traditional procedure for conversion to Judaism." R. J. GrigaitisJewish Baptism 2007-06-08 http://grigaitis.net/home/rjgrigaitis_resume.html

"Josephus tells us that even during the years of war (66-73 A.D.) the laws of ritual immersion were strictly adhered to (Jos. Wars, 4:205). Herod's Temple itself contained immersion baths in various places for the priests to use, even in the vaults beneath the court (Commentary to Tam. 26b; Tam. 1:1)." Mystical Mikveh Immersion, The Jewish Background of Christian Baptism by Ron Moseley, Ph. D.

Seeing Through the Eyes of Jesus: His Revolutionary View of Reality and His Transcendent Significance for Faith was written by Rev. Dr. John F. Baggett who is a graduate of Kentucky Wesleyan College and Vanderbilt Divinity School. He holds a Masters in the Anthropology of Religion and a Ph.D. in Psychiatric Anthropology from the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.

He writes:

“Once again, it is important to understand the intent of the law. The commandment to honor fathers and mothers was not simply intended to ensure the right relationships between parents and children while the children were growing up. It was also intended as the social welfare system of the day which assured that the aging and elderly parents received compassionate care and support.”

“In religious zeal, some Pharisees were allowed to circumvent their responsibility to provide for their parents by declaring the resources that would have gone to that purpose as “dedicated to God.” By seeking their own personal holiness at the expense of the welfare of their parents through the declaration of Corban, they in fact made the commandment meaningless for they had avoided its purpose. Social responsibility for those in need was the intent of the Law. Some Pharisees violated that intent by placing their own desires for personal righteousness above social responsibility.”

Acts 6:1 "And in those days, when the number of the disciples was multiplied, there arose a murmuring of the Grecians against the Hebrews, because their widows were neglected in the daily ministration."

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