Conversation with Jim

In this conversation with Jim he want to save Social Security He has a number of ideas that incorrect. I have come across him for a long time and I believe he is sincere but misinformed on a few things.

This cam out of the Conversation with Mosheh

Social Security Trust Fund

The Democrats sold us all a bill of goods that none of us are going to be able to receive the benefits we have paid for.

The original intent of the Social Security Trust Fund was to give American workers a Trust that would give them a livable income and pay all of their medical expenses upon their retirement or in the event they should become disabled and unable to work. The Social Security Trust Fund was never intended to be used as a private slush fund for either the Congress or the President.

By law any surplus in the Social Security Trust Fund must be converted into Government Bonds and the money added to the General Tax Fund where those THIEVING DEMOCRATS can spend it as they see fit. When income revenues are less than the amount needed to pay out benefits the shortfalls to be paid for by the American workers. In other words those THIEVING DEMOCRATS have figured out a way to force us to pay multiple times for Social Security Benefits we will never see. When there is an increase in benefits those THIEVING DEMOCRATS simply increase the amount of money we are forced to pay every month. Then at the end of the year those THIEVING DEMOCRATS convert the surplus into Government Bonds with the money added to the General Tax Fund where those THIEVING DEMOCRATS spend OUR MONEY on their pet projects which will put the most of our money into THEIR Pockets.

Our Social Security Trust Fund belongs to those Americans who have paid into it and it does not belong to the United States Congress or the President. Under the original Social Security Trust Law the Congress was to be the Trustees over the Social Security Trust Fund to insure that the Social Security Trust Fund was distributed fairly amongst those individuals who have paid into it.

I have a plan to SAVE our Social Security and Medicare. Presently whenever there is a surplus in our Social Security and Medicare Trust Funds that money is converted into 'Special' Treasury Bonds and our money is then added to the general tax fund for the politicians to spend on everything other than our Social Security and Medicare benefits. Currently the Treasury is holding between 20 and 25 TRILLION dollars in these 'Special' Treasury Bonds in our Social Security and Medicare Trust Fund accounts.

Now my plan is to convert those "Special" Treasury Bonds into e-Dollars at an exchange rate of $2.00 in hard currency (paper bills) to equal 1 e-Dollar. That will accomplish two very important things first it will double the amount of money held in trust by the treasury in our Social Security and Medicare Trust Funds and it will give our Seniors a break on their living and medical expenses.

Every person receiving Social Security and Medicare benefits will be issues a Social Security E-Card. Every month the card will be credited whatever amount the person is due from Social Security. A person who receives $3,700.00 in Social Security Benefits at the current rate will receive $7,400.00 in e-Dollars on their Social Security E-Card every month.

The best part of all of this is the fact that we will NOT have to raise taxes or cut any benefits to cover the cost of this since we will be converting those "Special' Treasury Bonds into e-Dollars.

Now the Democrats want us all to believe that there are too many citizens living on Social Security to sustain it. The truth is the Democrats have been stealing our money from our Social Security TRUST Fund.

Those THIEVING Democrats have stolen a little over $15 TRILLION dollars from OUR Social Security Trust Fund over the past 50 years.

I have a plan to get OUR MONEY back into OUR Social Security Trust Fund. Then once we have restored OUR MONEY into OUR Social Security Trust Fund we will remove OUR Social Security Trust out from under the control of those THIEVING DEMOCRATS

By placing OUR Social Security under the sole control of a Board of Trustees elected from among those Americans who have been paying into it by those Americans who are currently paying into the Trust or receiving Social Security benefits we can properly protect OUR Social Security Trust Fund from those THIEVING DEMOCRATS.

This is the ONLY way to insure the stability of OUR Social Security Trust Fund. That is because as long as the thieving Democrats are able to get their hand on it at will they will continue using OUR Social Security Trust for their personal whims and pet projects and blaming us for THEIR CRIMES against those of us who have trusted them with OUR MONEY.

WE ONLY NEED 60 MILLION SUPPORTERS TO MAKE THIS HAPPEN.

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Your perception of Social security is not correct. It is not insurance. There has never been a separate trust fund. Neither its purpose nor their intent was to "give American workers a Trust that would give them a livable income and pay all of their medical expenses upon their retirement or in the event they should become disabled and unable to work." The purpose was as old as Babylon and Egypt and Cain himself. It has been well known that “ The real destroyers of the liberties of the people is he who spreads among them bounties, donations, and benefits.” Plutarch, 2000 years ago. Did or does congress have the authority or power to establish a retirement scheme? Even with its formidable power to control interstate commerce, the Congress was never given the duty to become an insurance company for every ill that might fall the inhabitants of this land.

“The catalogue of means and actions which might be imposed upon an employer in any business, tending to the satisfaction and comfort of his employees, seems endless. Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. Can it fairly be said that the power of Congress to regulate interstate commerce extends to the prescription of any or all of these things? Is it not apparent that they are really and essentially related solely to the social welfare of the worker, and therefore remote from any regulation of commerce as such? We think the answer is plain. These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power.” Railroad Retirement Board, supra, 295 U.S., at 368 If Congress did not have the power to establish an insurance system, who wanted it, what were they doing and why? And everyone should know that “A man void of understanding striketh hands, [and] becometh surety ....” Pr 17:18 They needed more collateral to get the fed to lone more money. If you volunteered to be a surety for the debt they feigned a promise of security.

They told us that “The President wanted everybody covered for every contingency in life---’cradle to the grave,’ he called it---under the social insurance system… But the Government of the United States is not an insurance company and so it could be done.” Forward by Frances Perkins Sec of Labor 1933-45 The Development of the Social Security Act by Edwin E. Witte, ppVII Witte designed the Act. On page 936 through page 946 of the Ways and Means hearings the originator [Witte ] stated that Social Security was “sold as if it were insurance” and that was a mistake and should not have been published as such. So it wasn’t until 1953 the originator admitted that it is not insurance as published in 1936. To be like insurance is not being insurance. What it was was the introduction of the people to system of corvee or statutory servitude as surety for debt just like in the days of Egypt and many other times in man's history. Neither the President nor the congress had the power to compel the free people of America to begin to labor without pay. They could not force the entire population into becoming tax collectors and serfs, taskmasters and statute laborers.

How could an entire nation be bound into slavery?

“20 C.F.R. § 422.1(ii) Any person who wishes to file an application for an account number may do so by filing Form SS-5.” 20 C.F.R. § 422.1(ii) publ. at 11 F.R. 177A-568, Sept. 11, 1946.

“20 C.F.R. § 422.103 (b) Applying for a number - (1) Form SS-5. An individual needing a social security number may apply for one by filing a signed form SS-5, “Application for A Social Security Number Card,” at any social security office and submitting the required evidence.” 20 C.F.R. § 422.103

Is it not the “Social Security Number” or “Employee Identification Number” or “Tax Identification Number,” being all one and the same, that is given as the sign of your eligibility for the benefit of legal employment. Your natural right to your labor is legally converted? Whether you hand your card to your prospective licensed Federal employer/taskmaster or simply give him your diligently memorized numerical identifier, it is still that number that marks you for service. In Egypt it was never to exceed 20% but all had to serve.Your enforced payment or contribution will be collected before you even see it, and you will toil without pay.

“ Art thou less a slave because thy master loves and caresses thee?” Pascal. So now you know the purpose and of course I can send you a more detailed essay with footnotes if you like. But as to a separate trust fund? It never existed. The only thing in the trust fund is you. Not so Secure Socialism Same old promise, Same old lie! http://www.hisholychurch.org/news/articles/notsecuress.php Not so Secure Socialism

• Gregory You are not telling me anything I didn't already know. So how about telling me your thoughts about my plan to save Social Security and Medicare.

Remembering people have paid for services and benefits they were never suppose to see.

• Gregory Williams Well, your question can only lead me to think that you do not yet know what I told you. I do not think you read the article attached that shows there was never a trust fund.

Not only that, but you did see the benefits of the system as it was meant to be as you paid in and they paid out. They have paid for benefits and you saw those benefits. Those benefits went to the people who received them. All those needy people your tax dollars were helping out got their benefits. Doesn't that make you happy that you helped all those widows and orphans and the needy of your society with your yearly sacrifice. If you read that article above it is very clear from the beginning there was never anything on deposit for you. The other benefit was that the Fed started loaning a lot more money with you and your children now being surety for the debt. This stimulating the economy. Doesn't that make you happy. All that loan money, I mean credit, allowed the government to "make its instruments of war" and" take your sons and make them run before their chariots", I mean tanks and now take your daughters and put them to work just like Thomas Paine wrote about in Common Sense. The Social Security program was both a Corvee system that brought you under tribute and a system of Qorban which made you merchandise, human resources, to say nothing of making you a surety for debt they never intend to pay. You cannot save the system. Better you try to save your children or grandchildren from the bondage. The Qorban of Rome Free benefits that bind. http://www.hisholychurch.org/sermon/corban.php Corban, Korban, Qorban HHC Sermons

The Social Security Trust Fund was created in 1939 as part of the Amendments enacted in that year. From its inception, the Trust Fund has always worked the same way. http://www.ssa.gov/history/InternetMyths.html

By law, income to the trust funds must be invested, on a daily basis, in securities guaranteed as to both principal and interest by the Federal government. All securities held by the trust funds are "special issues" of the United States Treasury. Such securities are available only to the trust funds. http://www.ssa.gov/oact/progdata/fundFAQ.html#a0=1

Is The Social Security Trust Fund Solvent? http://www.forbes.com/sites/mikepatton/2013/06/12/is-the-social-security-trust-fund-solvent/

http://useconomy.about.com/od/monetarypolicy/f/Who-Owns-US-National-Debt.htm Who Owns Most of the US National Debt

The Social Security Trust Fund is holding 62% of the national debt. By converting those 'Special' Treasury Bonds into e-Dollars we can secure future Social Security benefits AND retire 62% of the national debt at the same time.

• Gregory Williams Jim it does not work that way. I see a lot of cut and paste propaganda but if you carefully read the act and the courts it is clear there is no division of funds and no personal property right to those funds. You bet on a bad plan. You should carefully read the articles I sent you and think about it. The system is not only bankrupt but it bankrupts society, centralizes power and destroys societies.

The United States Supreme Court in 1937 validated Social Security as an exercise of the Constitutional taxing power of Congress for the benefit of the general fund of the United States Treasury. The Supreme Court also said that “Congress could, in its future discretion, spend that money for whatever Congress then judged to be the general welfare of the country” having “no constitutional power to earmark or segregate certain kinds of tax proceeds for certain purposes, whether the purposes be farm-price supports, foreign aid or social security payments.” The Social Security Tax, by Clarence E. Manion. U.S. vs. Butler, 297 U.S. 1; Steward Machine Company vs. Davis, 301 U.S, 548; Helvering vs.Davis, 301 U.S. 619.

Helvering v. Davis (1937), Court had ruled that Social Security was not a contributory insurance program, saying, “The proceeds of both the employee and employer taxes are to be paid into the Treasury like any other internal revenue generally, and are not earmarked in any way.”

According to the Social Security Tax Act the government has been under no contractual obligation to make any return payment from the very beginning and has carried the provision that, “The right to alter, amend, or repeal any provision of this act is hereby reserved to the Congress.” Social Security Act of 1935 Title XI- General Provision, Section 1104

Therefore “Congress could continue to collect the so-called social security pay roll taxes even though Congress discontinued all social security benefit payments.” The Social Security Tax, by Clarence E. Manion.

This may seem a little scary for some who are or may be dependent upon such payments but that is exactly what you should expect as the national and world economies continues their descent into a domain of devastating decline, debt and disaster. To believe that you have a right to get back specified benefits because you paid into Social Security is a foolhardy fallacy, if not a delusion of false hope.

Social Security benefits do not include an “‘accrued property rights.”

In the 1960 Fleming v. Ephram Nestor case, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that workers have no legally "contractual interest".

Ephram Nestor paid Social Security taxes from 1936 until he retired in 1955.He was deported for having been a member of the Communist Party in the 1930s.

In 1954 Congress had passed a law saying that any person deported from the United States should lose his Social Security benefits. Nestor sued but the Supreme Court disagreed, saying:

“To engraft upon the Social Security system a concept of ‘accrued property rights’ would deprive it of the flexibility and boldness in adjustment to ever changing conditions which it demands.”

The Court went on to say:

“It is apparent that the non-contractual interest of an employee covered by the [Social Security] Act cannot be soundly analogized to that of the holder of an annuity, whose right to benefits is bottomed on his contractual premium payments.”

• Mosheh This issue of Social Security... and benefits from the government like Medicare...can be seen as perfectly acceptable tasks our government is forced to provide to the people based on a simple investment curve in taxation and payouts which could also include a means test and other factors which make it perfectly good math to allow for this social service.... BUT... IT IS SUPPOSED TO BE PROVIDED FOR BY AN AMENDMENT GIVING THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT THE POWER TO SERVE US IN ANY PARTICULAR WAY..... but that demand for service.. would be just that, and as per Amendment 9 - Construction of Constitution. Ratified 12/15/1791.

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people. (In other words, the Constitution does not reduce natural rights, nor can it be changed to remove stated rights held by the people, which is protected by the Common Law!) ......................... so no new amendment can be written to eliminate any rights stated as given already. So no new amendment can take away our common law freedom, even if we force the government to do our laundry... we still have no obligation to give up anything for it. IT WORKS FOR US... WE SHOULD NOT BR SUBJECT TO IT.... PERIOD.

• Gregory Williams The constitution did not change or disparage rights nor the government. You signed up for benefits with other members authorizing the government to take from your neighbor to provide for those benefits. The ministers you elected squandered the funds and is entirely broke but the terms allow them to keep taking from you because you are a surety for the debt. It is no different with any other trust of its kind. You benefited so now you must pay the debt.

• Mosheh in that case... the issue is forced contracting... i.e.. if you cannot get out of the contract... then it is forced on you, and is null and void... the idea that people should need to enter into contract agreements to recieve benefits.... is the problem.... it does not have to work that way... its not supposed to work that way..... IT IS SUPPOSED TO WORK BY CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT .... to tell the government to do something... and that amendment cannot take away any rights of the people... get it... limited government powers... I agree this forced contracting is a problem.... but more.... it is the fact that you cannot see that if... if... if.. we restore the amendment process of constitutional law... then suddenly.. all those contracts and benefits end... until we write amendments to restore them.... we can have both... benefits... and be free...

• Jim It would hqave been a contract agreement IF we have volunteerly participated in it. We were forced to participate since the money was deducted from our pay every payday. Tghe government calls it a tax. FICA Tax.

• Gregory Williams Where do you think the funds come from that provides the benefit? The government has nothing to give but what it takes from others. Even tariff taxes raise the cost of goods and you will have to pay. As I told Jim, he saw the benefits paid out. The problem is that the funds were in the same treasury and there is neither a division or a property right. If you read the act and the law you should see that.

Free bread and circuses, benefits at the expense of your neighbor weakens society. The poor becomes lazy and debilitated like you see in places like Detroit and the middle class is decimated.

This has always happened in history.

You volunteered when you signed up and began to file. It is an irrevocable trust. Once in you cannot leave until the debt is paid and all enter in debt because the whole system was set up to get the Feds to loan more money. You were bankrupt in 29 and then you added yourselves to the collateral. The system is already failed. You just have not hit the pavement.

You have to look at the law and the context in history. Where have we done this before and what worked to save us then. Most will not relent but those who do may be able to help save their children.

The assets or "holdings" you think are there in the system are already collateral for debt. They cannot use them for you. Why do you think they work so hard to keep from auditing the fed?

There is no easy way out and there is no viable way to simply void the contract. There is another way to go and others have done it before. YOU ARE in Bondage. You are merchandise, surety, human resources but do not despair. Learn from history... http://www.hisholychurch.org/study/gods/cog4eve.php

• Jim When I first started working I was NOT asked if I wanted to participate in Social Security. We DID NOT have a choice in the matter.

However that is not the problem here. The problem is the fact that now that the baby Boomers are coming of age there is not enough money to pay their Social Security and Medicare Benefits AND there are not enough working Americans to support the system. Between the early 60sw and now the Baby Boomers have put the most money into Social Security and Medicare. We have paid out enough money to cover our parents and our children's Social Security and Medicare along with our own. We have yet to touch over 2% of the money we entrusted with our government for our retirement. So where did all of that money go? If it had gone into stocks and bonds then why can't we get it now when we need it? Our money was in fact converted into 'Special' Treasury Bonds. The money was added to the General Tax Fund and spent over the decades.

Now we have a choice to make. We can call Social Security and Medicare bust, we can raise taxes to artificially support them or we can do like the banks and convert those worthless 'Special' Treasury Bonds into usable e-Dollars.

CREATE MONEY OUT OF DEBT. Debt that does not have to be repaid.

• Gregory Social Security and Medicare are bust because there is no separation of funds. The funds invested that were surplus were eaten up by interest on the national debt and your are still in debt.

Mosheh said "This issue of Social Security... and benefits from the government like Medicare...can be seen as perfectly acceptable tasks our government is forced to provide to the people based on a simple investment curve in taxation and payouts which could also include a means test and other factors which make it perfectly good math to allow for this social service.."

As of February 2014 each American with a Social security number owes $54,818.72. But if you take all composite debt the figure is more like $193,000 for each man, woman and child, if we accept the U.S. total debt at $60,000,000,000,000.

But unfunded future debt liabilities are currently conservatively estimated to be $125 trillion — although Harvard Economist Professor Niall Ferguson estimates it at $238 trillion which you and everyone else owes $256,000 to $758,203 each but you can round that off to $400,000 if you feel lucky.

"So where did all of that money go?" you ask. It was spent, squandered wasted.

Evidently you elected guys who were not good at math. The truth is as I have already shown the government is not an insurance company. Even if you passed an Amendment, which was unnecessary, it required the people to voluntarily sign up. And they did. They did because they did not read the instruction.

If the Churches were doing what they use to do they would not have needed to sign up which I already explained in the articles on Corban.

"CREATE MONEY OUT OF DEBT." That is what got you in this mess. If the Debt money you create "... does not have to be repaid." then no one would want it.

Debt money and desiring benefits by taking from your neighbor had brought this all about just like hundreds of times in history. Mosheh said "if our government should be corrupted.... we can replace it" but it was not the government that was corrupted as much as it was us. We coveted our neighbors goods through social schemes of wantonness.

Mosheh said "even if we force the government to do our laundry... we still have no obligation to give up anything for it. IT WORKS FOR US... WE SHOULD NOT BR SUBJECT TO IT.... PERIOD."

This of course is absurd. You can elect the government to do things but they must be funded. You can tell it to make money out of nothing but no one would want that money in other countries so they would have no value.

The government does not fund anything. It takes funds from people and use those funds. Even when it borrows treasury notes or does things on credit it uses its taxing power as collateral for debt. Before 1933 that did not include the labor of Americans. They could tax interest and fiduciaries of Corporations but not the individuals labor. You had to sign up for that.

They actually did not make you sign up. It is not really "forced contracting ". They just require you to sign up if you want to work for them now or at least if you want the benefit of work. You cannot hardly survive without that number but you do not have to get it. You could probably get rid of it. Just pay the $400,000 you owe.

No you can't really change the government until you pay your bill and anyone you elect will find that they do not run things.