Template:Forgive them: Difference between revisions
m (→Forgive them) |
|||
| Line 7: | Line 7: | ||
There have been some controversial interpretations of this verse [[Luke 23]]:34. There really is no valid reason for it since by standard Greek it is actually fairly cut and dry. | There have been some controversial interpretations of this verse [[Luke 23]]:34. There really is no valid reason for it since by standard Greek it is actually fairly cut and dry. | ||
It has been suggested that [[Luke 23]]:34 | It has been suggested that [[Luke 23]]:34 should be translated "father '''forgive them not''' for ''they'' know what they do" rather than the commonly accepted "forgive them '''for they know not''' what they do". | ||
If "not" modifies "know" then "they know not" if it modifies "forgive" then Jesus is asking God to "forgive not". | If "not" modifies "know" then "they know not" if it modifies "forgive" then Jesus is asking God to "forgive not". | ||
| Line 63: | Line 63: | ||
Many languages use different word order than English. Some put a verb last in a sentence, like Latin, or will put verbs first like in the famous German example of "Throw the cow over the fence some hay" which can create an alternate meaning when translated because of German word order versus English word order. | Many languages use different word order than English. Some put a verb last in a sentence, like Latin, or will put verbs first like in the famous German example of "Throw the cow over the fence some hay" which can create an alternate meaning when translated because of German word order versus English word order. | ||
Many aspects of the syntax of Greek have remained constant throughout its history. Sometimes people can get lost in linguistics but in this case, trying to understand the syntax and the words that are used is fairly clear. There is, in fact, another reason for the confusion which we will all have to personally address eventually. | Many aspects of the syntax of Greek have remained constant throughout its history. Sometimes people can get lost in linguistics, but in this case, trying to understand the syntax and the words that are used is fairly clear. There is, in fact, another reason for the confusion which we will all have to personally address eventually. | ||
Greek may use word order, not so much for syntax, but for what linguists might call discourse planning. It has been suggested this is customarily done in order to let the reader or listener know what the author or speaker is talking about and what the most salient information is. There is a very consistent way of doing this in Greek. | Greek may use word order, not so much for syntax, but for what linguists might call discourse planning. It has been suggested this is customarily done in order to let the reader or listener know what the author or speaker is talking about and what the most salient information is. There is a very consistent way of doing this in Greek. | ||
| Line 69: | Line 69: | ||
=== Postpositive === | === Postpositive === | ||
According to | According to William Hersey Davis' Beginner's Grammar of the Greek New Testament, the Greek word ''gar'' (γὰρ)<Ref> 1063 ~γάρ~ gar \@gar\@ a primary particle; ; conj AV-for 1027, misc 28, not tr 12; 1067 1) for</Ref> which we see as ''for'' is a conjunction or 'cause' word which always considered to be 'postpositive'.<Ref> Words that often begin a clause when translated into English, but never begin a clause in Greek are called postpositives. A postpositive is positioned (posited) after (post) other words in the clause. Often, a postpositive will be the second word in its clause. The following conjunctions are postpositives. γάρ = for; δέ = but, and; οὖν = therefore</Ref> Because it is ''postpositive'' it can never come first in the clause it begins therefore with the Greek word "not" would precede the word "for".<Ref>" Greek. In the N. T. a@n, ga<r, ge<, de<, me<n, me<ntoi, ou#n, te never begin a sentence, in harmony with ancient Greek usage. These | ||
words commonly in the N. T. come in the second place..."GRAMMAR OF THE GREEK NEW TESTAMENT IN THE LIGHT OF HISTORICAL RESEARCH BY A. T. ROBERTSON, M.A., D.D., LL.D., LITT.D. Professor of Interpretation of the New Testament in the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary Louisville, Ky. Page 434, </Ref> | words commonly in the N. T. come in the second place..."GRAMMAR OF THE GREEK NEW TESTAMENT IN THE LIGHT OF HISTORICAL RESEARCH BY A. T. ROBERTSON, M.A., D.D., LL.D., LITT.D. Professor of Interpretation of the New Testament in the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary Louisville, Ky. Page 434, </Ref> | ||
| Line 76: | Line 76: | ||
Japanese, for example, has postpositions which come after the nouns, but do the same job as English prepositions. It is simply the way the language developed. There is really very little if any debate among Greek scholars concerning the translation of [[Luke 23]]:34. | Japanese, for example, has postpositions which come after the nouns, but do the same job as English prepositions. It is simply the way the language developed. There is really very little if any debate among Greek scholars concerning the translation of [[Luke 23]]:34. | ||
Because of the consistency of the Greek language and these basic rules concerning postpositive words there is no doubt that the translation should read in English, | Because of the consistency of the Greek language and these basic rules concerning postpositive words, there is no doubt that the translation should read in English, | ||
: '''"Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do".''' | : '''"Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do".''' | ||
| Line 83: | Line 83: | ||
Yet, some continue to try to explain that Christ Himself taught, and as the Old Testament testifies, forgiveness is based upon repentance and then ask ''did these Jews ever repent of their sin''? | Yet, some continue to try to explain that Christ Himself taught, and as the Old Testament testifies, forgiveness is based upon repentance and then ask ''did these Jews ever repent of their sin''? | ||
Then they proclaim that they never did which often leads to an excuse for anti-Semitism. The truth is while there may be collective sin each person's sin must be judged individually. So the idea that we can blame the modern Jew for the crucifixion is absurd. | Then they proclaim that they never did, which often leads to an excuse for anti-Semitism. The truth is while there may be collective sin each person's sin must be judged individually. So, the idea that we can blame the modern Jew for the crucifixion is absurd. | ||
Besides, there is evidence that Caiaphas<Ref> There are a number of audio files that touch on Caiaphas: | Besides, there is evidence that Caiaphas<Ref> There are a number of audio files that touch on Caiaphas: | ||
| Line 97: | Line 97: | ||
* [[Acts 3]]:17 "And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did [it], as [did] also your rulers. 18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled." | * [[Acts 3]]:17 "And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did [it], as [did] also your rulers. 18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled." | ||
And then continues to call them to repentance telling them that Jesus was here to fulfill a mission that would include blessing them as well with His death. | And then continues to call them to repentance, telling them that Jesus was here to fulfill a mission that would include blessing them as well with His death. | ||
* [[Acts 3]]:19 "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:... 25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. 26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities." | * [[Acts 3]]:19 "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:... 25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. 26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities." | ||
| Line 105: | Line 105: | ||
* 1 Corinthians 2:8 "Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory." | * 1 Corinthians 2:8 "Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory." | ||
Certainly, all the Jews were not to blame and many of them began to follow Jesus and became the Ministers of His Church like Joses who became Barnabas and many others. | Certainly, all the Jews were not to blame and many of them began to follow Jesus and became the Ministers of His Church, like Joses who became Barnabas, and many others. | ||
* [[Acts 6]]:7 "And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith." | * [[Acts 6]]:7 "And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith." | ||
Revision as of 14:35, 26 February 2023
Forgive them
- Luke 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.
There have been some controversial interpretations of this verse Luke 23:34. There really is no valid reason for it since by standard Greek it is actually fairly cut and dry.
It has been suggested that Luke 23:34 should be translated "father forgive them not for they know what they do" rather than the commonly accepted "forgive them for they know not what they do".
If "not" modifies "know" then "they know not" if it modifies "forgive" then Jesus is asking God to "forgive not".
Alternative
This alternate translation is drawn from the fact if you look at an interlinear translation you will see the Greek word order as "father forgive them not for they know what they do" beneath the Greek terms in the order of their appearance in the text.
| 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 3588 | 1161 | 2424 | 3004 | 3962 | 863 | 846 | 3756 | 1063 | 1492 | 5101 | 4160. |
| ὁ | δὲ | Ἰησοῦς | ἔλεγεν | Πάτερ, | ἄφες | αὐτοῖς· | οὐ | γὰρ | οἴδασιν | τί | ποιοῦσιν. |
| ~ | and | Jesus | said | Father | forgive | them | not | for | they know | what | they do |
Many languages use different word order than English. Some put a verb last in a sentence, like Latin, or will put verbs first like in the famous German example of "Throw the cow over the fence some hay" which can create an alternate meaning when translated because of German word order versus English word order.
Many aspects of the syntax of Greek have remained constant throughout its history. Sometimes people can get lost in linguistics, but in this case, trying to understand the syntax and the words that are used is fairly clear. There is, in fact, another reason for the confusion which we will all have to personally address eventually.
Greek may use word order, not so much for syntax, but for what linguists might call discourse planning. It has been suggested this is customarily done in order to let the reader or listener know what the author or speaker is talking about and what the most salient information is. There is a very consistent way of doing this in Greek.
Postpositive
According to William Hersey Davis' Beginner's Grammar of the Greek New Testament, the Greek word gar (γὰρ)[1] which we see as for is a conjunction or 'cause' word which always considered to be 'postpositive'.[2] Because it is postpositive it can never come first in the clause it begins therefore with the Greek word "not" would precede the word "for".[3]
There is actually no real reason for postpositives to occupy the position they do, except for the fact that they do.
Japanese, for example, has postpositions which come after the nouns, but do the same job as English prepositions. It is simply the way the language developed. There is really very little if any debate among Greek scholars concerning the translation of Luke 23:34.
Because of the consistency of the Greek language and these basic rules concerning postpositive words, there is no doubt that the translation should read in English,
- "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do".
Forgiveness in time
Yet, some continue to try to explain that Christ Himself taught, and as the Old Testament testifies, forgiveness is based upon repentance and then ask did these Jews ever repent of their sin?
Then they proclaim that they never did, which often leads to an excuse for anti-Semitism. The truth is while there may be collective sin each person's sin must be judged individually. So, the idea that we can blame the modern Jew for the crucifixion is absurd.
Besides, there is evidence that Caiaphas[4] may have repented and little or no evidence that other Jews did not repent. After all, there were only a few hundred Jews actually involved in the crucifixion and many of them only played a small part.
Considering the fact that John the Baptist was not even sure that Jesus was the Messiah[5] and most of the Apostles did not know for sure who He was[6] it would seem reasonable that the Pharisees actually did not know what they were doing.
Even Peter when addressing those who caused the death of Christ brings up the idea that they did not know what they were doing.[7]
- Acts 3:17 "And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did [it], as [did] also your rulers. 18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled."
And then continues to call them to repentance, telling them that Jesus was here to fulfill a mission that would include blessing them as well with His death.
- Acts 3:19 "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:... 25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. 26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities."
Even Paul proclaims they did not know what they were doing in 1 Corinthians 2:8.
- 1 Corinthians 2:8 "Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory."
Certainly, all the Jews were not to blame and many of them began to follow Jesus and became the Ministers of His Church, like Joses who became Barnabas, and many others.
- Acts 6:7 "And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith."
Way back in Isaiah 53:12 it was prophesied that the Messiah would make a prayer for the forgiveness of those who would be his transgressors even unto death.
- Isaiah 53:12 "Therefore will I divide him [a portion] with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors."
Absolution or fasting
Forgiveness of men is not the absolution of God. Forgiveness is fasting or rejecting the temptation to judge for ourselves, to decide good and evil for others.
Forgiveness by us is leaving judgment to God who is a righteous judge. This is one of those Mysteries of the Universe that makes our Spiritual DNA important. If we trust in God we trust in His Judgment and His righteousness.
If we usurp God and seek to punish people with our own judgment we are interfering with, even usurping God. If you desire to judge for God do not expect God to intervene on your behalf. Many people say they believe in God and even have a form of godliness but they deny the power of God to judge by failing to forgive and wanting to pass judgment on others.
Protection v Judgement
We are to love our enemy[8] and judge not lest we be judged. We are to attend to the weightier matters but for the purpose of protecting the innocent not punishing the wicked.
The spirit of the times have created a prison system that is supposedly there to punish sinners against society or at least the lawmakers of governments. They put someone in jail for 5 years at a cost to society of a quarter of a million dollars for doing no damage or injuring no one. The excuse this by saying they must pay their debt to society which has gone farther into debt in the process.
The governments of the world are to punish the wicked but the wicked is often the people who create those governments. The government of God leaves punishment to God and uses its courts only to protect the innocent. It certainly would not punish all of society with a goal of vengeance.
We are to be in the world but not of the "world". God has power to bring his judgment upon those who abuse or seek to abuse us. We do not have to be the judge of others. We may forgive and leave, trusting in God, to He who made us and is making us daily as we submit to His will. [9]
Forgiveness by us is an essential part of the process of seeking the Kingdom of God and His righteousness.[10]
If the usurpation of God is judgement is found in judging or ruling over others the forgiveness is leaving judgement to God. But the test of our forgiveness is the administration of fervent charity.
A dependence upon legal charity is a betrayel of Christ as well as the policy that makes us human resources.
This is why to be faithful to The Way of Christ we, as His Church, must have a daily ministration showing mercy[11] to all with mercy rejoicing against judgment but standing fast in good works toward one another in daily sacrifice.[12]
Forgiveness and mercy by us allows God to bring in His powers and mercy and His righteous judgment.
- ↑ 1063 ~γάρ~ gar \@gar\@ a primary particle; ; conj AV-for 1027, misc 28, not tr 12; 1067 1) for
- ↑ Words that often begin a clause when translated into English, but never begin a clause in Greek are called postpositives. A postpositive is positioned (posited) after (post) other words in the clause. Often, a postpositive will be the second word in its clause. The following conjunctions are postpositives. γάρ = for; δέ = but, and; οὖν = therefore
- ↑ " Greek. In the N. T. a@n, ga<r, ge<, de<, me<n, me<ntoi, ou#n, te never begin a sentence, in harmony with ancient Greek usage. These words commonly in the N. T. come in the second place..."GRAMMAR OF THE GREEK NEW TESTAMENT IN THE LIGHT OF HISTORICAL RESEARCH BY A. T. ROBERTSON, M.A., D.D., LL.D., LITT.D. Professor of Interpretation of the New Testament in the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary Louisville, Ky. Page 434,
- ↑ There are a number of audio files that touch on Caiaphas:
- Judges, Word Judge - Part 1 of 2 http://www.hisholychurch.net/kkvv/x3folder/140130wordjudge01.mp3
- First hour in Jesus series: http://www.hisholychurch.net/kkvv/x4folder/140207jesus01.mp3
- Second hour in Jesus series: http://www.hisholychurch.net/kkvv/x4folder/140207jesus02.mp3
- Fourth hour in series on FEMA: http://www.hisholychurch.net/kkvv/020/141011FEMA04sonofGod.mp3
- ↑ Luke 7:20 When the men were come unto him, they said, John Baptist hath sent us unto thee, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another?
- ↑ Luke 9:18 ¶ And it came to pass, as he was alone praying, his disciples were with him: and he asked them, saying, Whom say the people that I am? 19 They answering said, John the Baptist; but some say, Elias; and others say, that one of the old prophets is risen again. 20 He said unto them, But whom say ye that I am? Peter answering said, The Christ of God.
- ↑ Acts 3:13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let [him] go. 14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you; 15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses. 16 And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.
- ↑ Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
- ↑ Luke 1:67 ¶ And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying, 68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, 69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; 70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: 71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us; 72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant; 73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham, 74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear, 75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life. 76 And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways; 77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins, 78 Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us, 79 To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace. 80 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, and was in the deserts till the day of his shewing unto Israel.
- ↑ Matthew 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged. Matthew 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. Luke 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
- ↑ James 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
- ↑ James 2:14 ¶ What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?