Modern Christians

It amazes me having studied what the early church was doing, what the world was doing and what the conflict was between the world and the early Christians that the Modern Christians could be so confused about the simplicity of the gospel of Christ and that Paul was preaching exactly what Christ taught and said so several times.

The modern Christian is often seen doing daily what those early Christians were persecuted and even killed for not doing. We will also cover all this in our series on "that word you use" like religion and faith.

The following is a conversation on Facebook that started with the idea that "sin separates man from God but that all sin is the same. Sin is sin and Jesus Christ died for all of our sins.The remedy for sin is believing the Gospel of the Grace of God. Jesus paid for every sin..."

Of course Jesus died that we might be saved and it is clear the unrepentant sinner is not saved no matter what he says. The topic is sin and of course Bob (as we will call him) has a hard time getting that. What I post is on the topic of sin. The problem is some want to think that the daily sin of do-nothing-just-believe Christians is not sin and unrepentant sin of continuously coveting your neighbors goods is okay. If you desire to continue to sin you are not forgiven and therefor remain doers of iniquity and will be told to depart.

We begin shortly after Steve's post was posted by Bob.

BOB And yet... many people say God is "not fair". (sigh) October 23 at 6:59am · Like · 1

Beth: the word "fair" is not in the Bible. Life is not fair. I always say, "Life is tough.....and then you die"....then add, "so you better know where you are going". October 23 at 8:37am · Like · 1

BOB: God made it possible for all men to be saved through Jesus Christ. That's equitable and fair in my book. Even when Israel was under the law God declares...

Ezekiel 18:25-32 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal? When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die. Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal? Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

But now we can all be saved without the law and do not need to do anything to be saved. We need to believe that Jesus Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, was buried and rose again from the dead according to the scriptures. (1 Cor. 15:1-4)

God's ways are equal and just (fair) for all men right now by believing the Gospel of the Grace of God.

1 Timothy 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

That is fair...

BOB: But what you said is true "life isn't fair"... and it is tough and unless Jesus comes for the church first we who can read this are all going to die.

Gregory Williams: Actually fair is in the bible about 50 times including Romans 16:18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

Beth: Yes, my mistake Greg. Sorry....should have worded that differently.

BOB: The point of the first post by Steve Atwood is that sin separates man from God but that all sin is the same. Sin is sin and Jesus Christ died for all of our sins.The remedy for sin is believing the Gospel of the Grace of God. Jesus paid for every sin man could commit.

We all have gotten side tracked off the topic. My bad.

Once a person trusts and believes the Gospel we are saved.

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

2 Corinthians 5:17-21 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

All sin is a "transgression of the law" and "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" (1 John 3:4, Romans 3:23).

Jesus Christ did it all. He paid for and took upon Himself **all** our sins without distinction.

Ephesians 1:6-7 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the **forgiveness of sins**, according to the riches of his grace;

Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having **forgiven you all trespasses;**

Either Jesus Christ paid for all our sins or He didn't...

We cannot be saved by our own works. We certainly cannot compare ourselves with other men and women and say God saved me because I keep the law and do good deeds better than they do.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: **Not of works, lest any man should boast.**

Titus 3:5-6 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

The only thing that can come between mankind and God today is a failure to believe, receive and trust in the finished work of Jesus Christ.

Give God the glory. He saved us through the sacrifice of His Son Jesus Christ.

Keeping the law to be saved will not cut it. Read the verses below and we can see why.

Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that **every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.**

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin...

Romans 3:27-28 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

To keep the Law one must keep it perfectly. What man has kept the whole law save Jesus Christ? Read the following verses and then tell me the answer.

Matthew 22:37-40 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

"... Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved,..." Acts 16:31

Now, that is Good News!

Gregory Williams: Breaking the law as a matter of personal policy is not repenting. Doing the opposite of what Christ said while claiming to believe the gospel of Christ makes one a worker of iniquity and often under a strong delusion. How can we pray to men who call themselves benefactors for their benefits when we know those benefits are provided by taking from our neighbor and then pretend to love our neighbor? How can we say we love Jesus when we are doing the opposite of what he said?

Luke 22:25 "And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors. But ye shall not be so:"

What part of "ye shall not be so" is hard to understand?

The good news is that you can repent and seek the kingdom of God at hand and the righteousness of God. But if you choose not to repent and continue to apply for and desire the benefits of men who exercise authority one over the other at the expense of your neighbor then it would appear that you do not believe in Jesus nor that you love your neighbor and that you are really just under a strong delusion.

Beth: You cannot pick and choose which scripture you are going to use and obey for your own benefit and ignore others. That is delusional as well. We need to take the Bible as a WHOLE and believe it in it's entirety.

Beth: That also means not using the "system" one is so against to "serve their own belly". Don't use the dollar if you are not willing to pay the tax on it. Even Jesus paid taxes and used currency to live.

BOB: So, who here advocates breaking "the law as a matter of policy"? However, everyone I know breaks the law... and... " For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."(James 2:10) That means that I am guilty of all... where does that leave you?

Because we are all sinners we need a Saviour. The Good News is that Jesus Christ took our sins upon Himself, was buried, and rose again from the dead for our justification. Sin a little, sin a lot "we are all in the same boat".

A person may brag that they are better law keepers than someone else... but that certainly won't save the boaster.

Gregory Williams: We should pay all the taxes we owe even when we are paid cash for something we sell. But I was not talking about taxes or paying them. I was talking about seeking, applying for and taking benefits from men who call themselves benefactors but who exercise authority one over the other instead of living by faith, hope and charity and the perfect law of liberty. Those who are seeking the latter are seeking what early Christians did and those who seek the former are doing what the Pharisees were condemned by Christ for doing.

BOB: I see we are going to deviate from the topic. Point being we are all sinners. We are all in the same boat.

Ecclesiastes 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Gregory Williams: There are two boats. One for sinners and one for repentant sinners who have turned around and are seeking the kingdom of God and his righteousness. We know by Christ's own words that some will think they are saved but are actually workers of iniquity. Those, though they say they believe, will be told to "depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

This division appears by Christ's words to have to do with the way you take care of the needy of your society. That would also fit with what Paul said about love and charity.

Pure religion is taking care of the needy by charity rather than by forcing the contributions of your neighbor to provide social welfare as is the policy of those men who call themselves benefactors.

The early Church as well as ancient Israel took care of all the needy with free will offerings. The early Church in America did the same but the modern Church has turned that duty over to men who exercise authority one over the other. To desire benefits at the expense of your neighbor is to covet your neighbor's goods through the exercising authority of those not true benefactors. Coveting was prohibited by God, Christ and Paul.

It is certainly not love. In truth it is iniquity and the Pharisees were condemned for doing it and "Making the word of God of none effect ". If modern Christians want to continue to do what the Pharisees were condemned for then they hardly should be claiming to have repented muchless love Jesus.

BOB: Doing good works is always a good thing but doing good works won't save anyone. Grace through faith will. No matter how large are small the sin may be it will condemn us all.

Titus 3:4-6 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward...See More 4 hours ago · Like

BOB: "No matter what you have done, no matter where you have been and no matter what you were doing while you were there" God will save you if you trust in the finished work of Christ for your salvation. There are no big sins in the dispensation of the Grace of God Jesus Christ didn't die for... Christ took all our sins upon Himself... All of them!

2 Corinthians 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

2 Corinthians 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Gregory Williams: Not those who say they trust in the finished work of Christ but those who actually trust in Christ. Again Christ warned us that may would be deceived into thinking they new Christ and trusted in him but he warns us that they would be counted as workers of iniquity.

Gregory Williams: Christ clearly judged those he brought in and those he told to depart based on the nature of what they were doing. Over and over Jesus, John and James told us we will know by what they do not what they say they believe. If we are not doers of the word but instead making the word of God to none effect by our traditions then our claim to faith may fall short. Matthew 7:21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

Matthew 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

John 9:31 Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth. None of this is saying we are saved by works. But if we are doing contrary to Christ's words then we are not following Him nor keeping his commandments.

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.

1 John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

2 John 1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it. 3 hours ago · Edited · Like

BOB: Sounds like we better heed that warning and trust what Christ has done for us and not in what we do for Him.

Romans 4:4-5 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Look at what Christ has Done for us and what we are to trust in...

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also**ye are saved**, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that **Christ died for our sins** according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Thanks and Praise be to Jesus alone for what He has done.

Rock of Ages

"Not the labor of my hands Can fulfill Thy law's demands; Could my zeal no respite know, Could my tears forever flow, All for sin could not atone; Thou must save, and Thou alone.

Nothing in my hand I bring, Simply to Thy cross I cling; Naked, come to Thee for dress; Helpless, look to Thee for grace; Foul, I to the fountain fly; Wash me, Savior, or I die."

Acts 13:38-39 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Galatians 2:20-21 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

There are no sins that Christ did not pay for there isn't anyone today who cannot be saved.

1 Timothy 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Gregory Williams: I Quote Christ and you quote Paul out of the context of the gospel of Christ. Paul wrote people who were seeking to follow the gospel not people who just say they believe and then pray to men who call themselves benefactors, covet their neighbors goods and cursed their children with the public debt of those benefactors.

Christians did not trust in the Corban of the Pharisees nor the Qorban of Rome. They provided for one another in love. It is not about saved by works it is about repenting and returning to the way of the Father in Heaven.

The Father of the prodigal son would not have come out to meet him if the son never tried to leave the pig mire. 2 Peter 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog [is] turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

BOB: There is no doubt Jesus when He came to Israel told the Jews to keep the law. The Kingdom program that is for Israel is for the time being postponed. A new Gospel and a new apostle was given with a message that was a mystery. This message was to Gentiles. All prophecy and the law was given to Israel. But now through the "Fall of Israel salvation has come to the Gentiles.

Observe from the scriptures. The Kingdom Gospel was given by the prophet. The Gospel of the Grace of God was kept secret from the foundation of the World.

Compare: Acts 3:20-22 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath **spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began**. For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

Who was Peter speaking to?

Acts 3:12 And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, **Ye men of Israel,** why marvel ye at this? or why look ye so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk?

Paul's Gospel was not spoken by the Prophets but was a mystery that no one knew until the risen, ascended Christ revealed it to Paul.

Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to **my gospel**, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the **revelation of the mystery, which was kept SECRET since the world began,**

Greg, our posts are crossing. This is my response to the scripture given in your last post.

BOB: Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

I forgot to add this to my last post... Through their (Israels fall) Salvation has come to the Gentiles.

Acts 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

Salvation was to come to the world through Israel a nation of priests. It was unknown and a mystery that salvation would come to the Gentiles through Israel's fall.

Romans 11:30-32 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Believe Paul's Gospel and be saved.

Gregory Williams: There are not two gospels. Paul preached the gospel of Christ. No where does Christ or Paul preach that it is okay to covet your neighbor's goods while claiming to believe in the finished work of Christ. Romans 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if [there be] any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Yet modern Christians trust in the benefits of men who take from their neighbor and apply for benefits that drive our children into greater and greater debt. Not because they have to but because the Church is not doing what it did from the beginning. The Church is not doing it because it is full of people who think they can save themselves with a thought.

BOB: Coveting your neighbors goods is not the Gospel it is a commandment. No Christian promotes sin. A Christian believes his or her sins are paid for... all of them. We trust in Christ that He paid for our sins on the cross and by believing and in trusting in what He did for us we have His righteousness imputed to us.

Galatians 3:2-5 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

BOB: Saved people know they can't save themselves with a thought or anything else. Saved people believe they are saved by grace through God's gift. Good News!

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Gregory Williams: But a Christian is a follower of Christ, He is someone who loves Christ. If you are not doing what he said the evidence shows you do not really love Christ. What many Modern Christians have done is reinvent Christ with their private interpretation of Christ. They reject what he said and imagine that Paul was saying all you have to do is think a thought. They think the word believe has to do with accepting an idea in your head and repeating it over and over. Belief means a conviction that compels actions.

Modern Christians what to believe they trust in Christ but they actually worship the image of Christ they created in their own heads. That way they can be workers of iniquity and actually think they are doing what Christ said and that they love him. This is why in 2 Timothy 3:1 it says This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth."

If everyone was actually believing in Christ the world would not be in the present state that it is in. May of those saying they are Christians are actually working against the ways of Christ.

This is why most of these Modern Christians have gone astray and returned to the mire and made a mess.. 2 Peter 2:15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam [the son] of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;

It is the watered down do nothing gospel of the Modern Christians that excuses covetousness, and sloth and avarice. Those that do believe know they are saved by grace but it is Christ who establishes who believes and who is just saying they believed and he told us what to look for to determining if we are just fooling ourselves.

Again the early Church took care of all the social welfare of the people in free assemblies by charity alone. They had to because when they got Christ's baptism they were kicked out of the social welfare system that was making the word of God to none effect. The modern Christian does not do that any more, they rely on the men who call themselves benefactors but exercise authority one over the other, taking from your neighbor so you can get your benefits. That was the Corban of the Pharisees. That makes the modern Christian who says he believes a worker of iniquity and not a true believer in the righteousness of God nor a truster in Christ. Just another soul under a strong delusion. 2 hours ago · Like

BOB: Well, it sounds like you have your work cut out for you.

Gregory Williams: We are all saved by grace if we will repent and forgive and seek the righteousness of God... Work and life are the same. All that is needed is true repentance and then the work comes naturally because of true faith. You know there is no repentance when the life/work does not match the ways of Christ.

Modern Christians have more in common with the traditions of the Pharisees who forced the contributions of the people who signed up for the temple Corban set up by Herod the Great.

Christ was crucified because he preached against such system and opposed them in his teachings. The true Christians were persecuted because they would not sign up for the Qorban of Rome.

If the Modern Christian truly repented and start loving one another the way the early Christians did it then they would live as Christ said, by faith, hope and charity and the perfect law of liberty. And not be trusting in men who exercise authority to provide them with rewards and benefits.

But they have not repented and their deeds tell us that they care not for the righteous ways of John nor His Baptism, Nor Christ and his kingdom of righteousness.

They and their pastors speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the comfort of their own flesh, through much wantonness of the benefits and gratuities of the world being of the world, All those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.

In 2 Peter 2:18 the word error means deceived and delusion, While they promise them liberty from truly living by faith and charity and love of Christ and His ways, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. This is why they are again in bondage because they do not worship him in spirit and in truth but only with their lips ...

For though Christ freed them after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. and again coveted their neighbor's good and become the slothful... so it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire...

They, the modern Christians who do not walk in the ways Christ taught, have their repentance cut out for them..,

Gregory Williams: I know it is hard to believe so many Churches have missed the simplicity of loving one another rather than asking men who exercise authority to take from their neighbor so that they can have all those free benefits from health care to free education, or some one to take care of our parents so that we are not burdened with that job but after all we were told in 2 Peter 2:2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. and in 2 Timothy 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away....

Bob: You can't be saved by Grace (unmerited favor) and do something (work) to be saved at the same time.

Romans 11:5-6 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. **And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace**. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

This chart contrasting forgiveness in the past may help to illustrate the point between works and grace.

Source:

Beth: I know of many churches (or people who make up the church) who DO take care of their neighbors, provide for the lost, help the poor, the elderly, etc. Perhaps we don't hear about it because they choose to do it in secret instead of boasting about it. I don't think we can lump all churches (or people within those churches) together to justify the claim that "Modern Christians" aren't doing what Christ taught. That is pretty judgmental. We don't know the hearts of men or what they do to exercise their faith. Only God can do that. I do agree that society in general today is happier to send money and let someone else do the work. They can feel good about themselves that way and not get involved. Sending money is easy....taking the time and energy to do something for someone is far more of an inconvenience.

Bob: That God would sacrifice His Son to die in our place is what is hard for our pride to believe. Man wants to believe that if everyone would simply think and do what he or she does the world would become a paradise. That simply isn't the case... all of us including you and I are the problem not the solution.

We have no power to save the world since by man (us) sin is in the world.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that **all have sinned:**...

...Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Our only hope is in Christ's work on our behalf.

Romans 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

Romans 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Romans 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have **now received the atonement.**

Praise the Lord! Jesus Christ took our sins upon Himself and He will by Himself deliver us from this "present evil world". (Galatians 1:4)

We are saved "for good works" but not by them. The entire point of this thread was to illustrate that all sin is on the same footing as far as eternal life is concerned.

Remember many unsaved people do good works but good works won't saved them. If a person wants to do a pure work after their salvation and "do their best" the best that they can do is preach the Gospel of the grace of God committed to the apostle Paul.

Paul declares:

1 Corinthians 4:15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

Romans 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

Bob: Right here in Bend I personally know individuals and entire Christian ministries who spend much of their time and effort doing things for the poor, sick and elderly. They just don't brag about it. These folks are fully aware that their efforts won't get them into heaven. They do it because they love Jesus Christ and want to help others. There are Christian missionaries all over the world who are tortured and murdered for their faith and for preaching the Gospel. This is off topic but because Christians are being maligned in this thread I thought I would defend my brothers and sisters in Christ who visit nursing homes, hospitals, families and give comfort and hope to those they help. Enough said.

Beth: I agree with you, and it is not off topic Bob. The Good News of Jesus Christ stands as a whole...and "faith without works is dead". There are so many believers out there giving their all to spread the news of salvation. Just because they belong (or attend) an organized body of believers does not negate what they do. Some people give money because they are aware of their limitations. Everyone receives different gifts and have a purpose in this life. We need to exercise these gifts as the body of Christ. The money given is to aid in the spreading of the gospel, helping missionaries around the world...even in America. Some people don't deal well with organization or authority. The truth is... If God wasn't organized, we flat out would not be here. If we were not under His authority we would not accomplish anything of consequence. All scripture is for our instruction and it all intertwines. We can't use certain scripture to further OUR agenda....well, I guess we can, but it is fruitless and futile. The Good news is God's Word does not return void. Keep up the good work!!

Gregory Williams: That is good these modern churches help the poor and do so with free will offerings but that is not what the early Church did. They did "all" social welfare for the congregants who believed in the gospel of Christ. The sought no public charity because that was prohibited by Christ and it was not real charity. Any time a contribution was forced by some one who could exercise authority Christians refused the benefit. This is why they were persecuted and killed.

Taking care of all the needy of the followers o Christ with nothing but free will offerings was part of the job description of the early Church ministers who were appointed the kingdom. That is what James called "pure religion". Religion was how you took care of the needy of your society. In the last two hundred years people have redefined religion. The definition of the word religion has changed in the minds of modern society since the Constitution.

Today, religion is defined as “a set of beliefs.” whereas a hundred years ago it was defined as an “outward act”. According to John Bouvier's 1856 Law Dictionary which was adapted to the Constitution of the United States, religion “in practice” consists of “the performance of all known duties to God and our fellow men.” The modern Church says there is nothing you have to do but just have a set of beliefs but religion at the time of Christ meant how you performed that duty to take care of the needy of your society. The Pharisees took care of them with a system of Corban that was forced if you signed up for it with the baptism of Herod but if you got the baptism of John and the Apostles who did it by sharing in charity and love. If you got that baptism of Christ you were cast out of the welfare system run through the temple built by Herod. We know this by John 9:22. Remember the temple was a government building in Judea. Herod got the funds to build it by his new deal social welfare system that forced the offerings of the people.

Those types of systems have come and gone over the centuries but were condemned by God and the prophets because they are covetous and not based on charity which is also translated love.

You see according to James 1:27 "Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, [and] to keep himself unspotted from the world."

The word world there is one of 5 different words translated world in the new testament. That word was defined " 1) an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government ". You see in order to practice pure faith and pure religion you need seek to not take any benefits from men who call themselves benefactors but exercise authority one over the other because if you do then your religion is "spotted" which is from a word meaning defiled. This is where the modern Church has lost its way and departed from the ways of Christ. Just 200 years ago in America the church was the entire social welfare of the people but today it will show a "form of godliness, but denying the power thereof" to take care of all the welfare of the people and we are told: "from such turn away."

You see what has happened is there is 'false prophets also among the people, even as there are false teachers among you, who privily have brought in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.' And 2 Peter 2:2 goes on to say "And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not."

You see Americans have become merchandise, human resources, surety for debt just like the Jews at the time of Herod and Rome but Christ set them free so the Christians were no more Greek and Jew but could say they had another king one Jesus. Modern Christians can say that with their lips but their deeds and actions say something else. Were early Christians died rather than sign up for the public religion of Rome that offered free bread at the expense of their neighbors by way of men like FDR and Obama who called themselves benefactors but exercise authority one over the other. Modern Christians have followed those pernicious ways instead of seeking the kingdom of God and His righteousness. Yes it may seem judgmental to say "Modern Christians" aren't doing what Christ taught.

But if people have strayed it is the job of the ministers of Christ to point out where they went wrong. We are to rebuke those we love according to Revelation 3:19 "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent." Visiting the widows and orphans was not dropping by with a card or flowers but providing for them so they did not have to go to those benefactors who exercise authority one over the other because their charity entangled the people in bondage because it was based on "one purse" and established by force.

This modern spotted religion of Modern Christians has 'entangled the people again with the yoke of bondage' because of their pernicious ways. I know many Christians are not far from the kingdom and their hearts are not far from Christ but like prodigal sons we must turn around [Repent] and head all the way back to our Fathers house to be his servant and not be forever studying but never coming to a full knowledge of the truth. We need ministers who are awake to the fullness of the gospel and teach the whole gospel and the truth about what Christ appointed us as his followers to seek and do.

This will all be the topic of 3 hours of radio broadcast today and is already explained in detail on our websites and in our books where we actually quote the transcripts of the trials of early Christians who were executed for not signing up for universal health care in Rome and other social welfare schemes set up back then when the republic of Rome went socialist and became despotic.

History does repeats itself and we should learn from it. We have a choice.We cannot change the course of history but we may change our role in it.

All roads lead to Rome and all roads lead to the kingdom of God. The question is which way are you going? Do modern ministers know and teach the way of Christ or have they been deceived too. It is really simple ... Loving one another is how we care for one another and if we are not doing it like Christ said we are not following him or His Way. Time to turn around and start seeking the kingdom of God and His righteousness with our whole heart mind and soul.

I think it is important to let those modern Christians know that they have listened to those ministers who creep into houses, and lead captive silly men and women laden with sins who want to think they are right and keep seeking the benefits where Christ said not to go. I do you read your posts. Giving a little is token charity is not what we are told?

The Church did it all.

Social welfare from the government is what supports most of the poor in the churches of today. The Churches use to do it all and if they did it all for those who say they believe which means those who say they believe must give enough to the church to make it happen, then they would be actually following Christ and doing the will of the Father. They are not and Bob and the pastors who wont or are afraid to point out the difference between what Christ actually said and the early Church was doing are perpetuating the lie. Christ did die for all our sins but you still have to repent. One of those sins is coveting your neighbors goods through men who exercise authority. This was a major theme of the gospel and part of Christ's specific instructions. Many Modern Christians still hope to apply for their benefits from those false benefactors... They will have to because the Church is not doing what Christ said or preaching what he told us to do. That sin needs to be rebuked. So I am on topic because those sins without distinction are not forgiven unless you repent.