Talk:What Love
Progressive Christians
Progressive Christianity represents a post-modern theological approach, and is not necessarily synonymous with progressive politics. It developed out of the Liberal Christianity of the modern era, which was rooted in enlightenment thinking. As such, Progressive Christianity is a "post-liberal movement" within Christianity "that seeks to reform the faith via the insights of post-modernism and a reclaiming of the truth beyond the verifiable historicity and factuality of the passages in the Bible by affirming the truths within the stories that may not have actually happened."
Pastor Mike Winger is the featured teacher of BibleThinker online ministry made a video about Progressive Christians where he says "churches that go progressive come back a few years later and they're usually empty or they're meeting in like a bar like five people the kind of thing it it tends to kill churches..."not in every case you might 03:28 have a super dynamic speaker that can 03:30 still have a gathering 03:31 but there's something in the core of it 03:33 that just kills churches 03:35 this is whole movements have died 03:36 because of this right the the largest 03:39 denominations that are atrophying and 03:40 dying the most are the most progressive 03:42 ones 03:44 which is odd because the culture 03:46 is extremely progressive too so you 03:47 can't act like they're just fighting 03:49 against culture and culture doesn't like 03:50 that something else is going on there 03:53 so here are some of the symptoms um 03:56 faith is celebrated 03:58 but not the faith the bible uses the 04:00 term the faith to talk about like 04:02 this is annoying to many progressives 04:04 but to talk about doctrines that we're 04:05 supposed to believe as christians so it 04:07 really does use the term the faith 04:09 almost like a like a term for 04:12 doctrines 04:13 like things you believe about jesus like 04:15 he he was born of a virgin and he he he 04:17 was in the flesh he lived a real human 04:19 life he didn't sin he died he physically 04:21 rose from the dead he did this for your 04:23 sins these this is the faith and i can 04:25 give you lots of verses that talk about 04:27 this but i'll give you an example first 04:28 timothy 4 1 talks about a warning for 04:30 those who depart from the faith 04:32 now progressive christians tend to think 04:33 about faith as like sort of a 04:35 quality you have it's like a stuff 04:36 that's in you that you want to nurture 04:39 it's not so important where it's 04:40 directed it's more important that it's 04:42 nurtured and healthy and strong right 04:44 but biblically speaking faith is 04:47 believing in the faith the doctrines 04:50 and so only faith that's accurate counts 04:53 this seems oppressive to people but i'm 04:55 just saying this is the biblical 04:56 perspective so first timothy 4 1 04:59 paul writes the spirit expressly or 05:01 explicitly says that in the later times 05:03 some will fall away from the faith 05:06 and then notice how he describes what 05:07 falling away from the faith looks like 05:09 paying attention to deceitful spirits 05:11 and doctrines of demons 05:14 so you see like the biblical perspective 05:16 isn't that faith this is more of a pop 05:17 culture thing that faith is like 05:19 a feeling of stuff that's why we talk 05:21 about people of faith or an interfaith 05:23 event 05:24 i don't think the biblical authors would 05:26 use those terms 05:27 because they're operating from a 05:28 different perspective 05:29 faith is only 05:31 valid and healthy and right when it's in 05:33 the right things when it's not doctrines 05:35 of demons but doctrines of christ 05:37 doctrines of god 05:39 abandoning doctrine amongst progressive 05:41 christians is is is totally tolerated 05:44 because of this perspective that the 05:46 faith or the doctrines are not central 05:48 to the christian teaching at least at 05:49 least not the doctrines that 05:51 christianity is typically focused on the 05:54 ideas of love are very central okay but 05:56 those doctrines are not focused on so 05:58 abandoning doctrine is celebrated even 06:00 it's not only tolerable it's often very 06:01 celebrated so that some people will feel 06:03 they're brave and i've seen this in 06:05 progressive christian groups i'm brave i 06:08 finally feel like i'm able to like give 06:10 up the resurrection of christ 06:12 and then people are like 06:14 that's very brave how open-minded of you 06:17 and this is not in every progressive 06:19 group but this is in some and it's 06:20 definitely i've heard progressives like 06:22 oh i i've literally heard them say 06:24 you know i've really rethought i've 06:25 really deconstructed a lot of that 06:27 evangelicalism stuff but i just haven't 06:30 i'm not able to give up the resurrection 06:32 of jesus yet and i'm like 06:35 that's a symptom of a problem like this 06:37 is this is not healthy this is not 06:39 biblical it's definitely not christian 06:40 so it's considered courageous um some of 06:42 the major influencers we'll hear from 06:44 some of them today i'll quote some of 06:45 them later and should play a couple 06:46 videos for you but author jyn hat maker 06:50 rob bell remember he was part of the 06:51 emergent church 06:52 the immersion church is the progressive 06:54 church there's not really a significant 06:55 difference between the two the names 06:56 just change 06:57 um brandon robertson more of a tick-tock 07:00 star than anything else um 07:02 john pavlovitz an author brian zond 07:04 another author uh scholars like pete 07:07 ends 07:08 right or greg boyd who 07:10 whether you would i would consider him 07:11 progressive at least because he fits so 07:13 much several of the symptoms but he 07:15 would be one who has not given up the 07:16 doctrines like the resurrection of 07:17 christ so i'm not accusing him of that 07:20 um popular women's authors like glennon 07:22 doyle she's probably the most well-known 07:25 that i would consider in this camp 07:27 richard rohr he's probably the most 07:29 influential even though he's not the 07:30 most well-known uh i think elisa 07:32 childress calls him the pope of 07:34 progressive christianity 07:36 even though he's really 07:38 he's he's the fuel 07:40 for the fire of progressive christianity 07:42 for many people even though he himself 07:44 is it's very odd you'll you'll 07:45 understand as we go along 07:47 but most of these people don't last 07:48 here's another symptom these leaders as 07:49 you google them i'm like i want to find 07:51 progressive leaders that at least have a 07:52 bigger influence than me 07:54 right like a youth pastor in southern 07:55 california who started doing youtube 07:57 videos and teaching theology i'm like so 07:59 who's at least bigger than me and at the 08:02 moment and i know that sounds arrogant i 08:03 don't mean it that way because i don't 08:05 think that my growth is an estimation of 08:07 me i think it's just it's just an 08:09 estimation of your potential influence 08:11 but um 08:12 but it's really hard to find even guys 08:14 like rob bell like you look at their 08:15 google search curve and it's like rob 08:17 bell and then the last like five years 08:19 nobody cares 08:20 you know 08:21 and i'm looking at these people and i go 08:22 like brian's on okay he had kind of a 08:24 and then his church is shrinking and 08:25 then people just don't pay attention to 08:26 him anymore this is consistent is that 08:29 these leaders have blips except for like 08:31 glenn and doyle has a massive current 08:33 following but that's because she doesn't 08:34 focus at all on the religious religious 08:36 aspects anymore that she originally 08:38 wrote about 08:40 so what what is this this is a symptom 08:42 too churches die but even the leaders 08:44 themselves have a blip of big following 08:46 big influence in people's lives but then 08:48 they just fade 08:50 why what is going on here i think this 08:52 is a symptom so i'm going to try and get 08:54 into that 08:55 the progressive christian individuals um 08:58 are hyper critical let's talk about some 09:00 of their criticisms against evangelical 09:01 christianity 09:03 they are often critical of uh 09:06 evangelicals or they'll call 09:07 fundamentalism i always struggle to know 09:08 what people mean when they say 09:09 fundamentalism i kind of want like a 09:11 definition that holds consistently and 09:12 i'm not really sure what it is 09:14 but they complain about purity culture 09:16 they say purity culture went overboard 09:18 it made us ashamed of sex and it blamed 09:20 women for men's lust issues 09:22 they say the gender views in the church 09:24 are oppressive to women and they do 09:26 great harm to them evangelicals are too 09:28 political they're shills for donald 09:30 trump and they're blind to the pride and 09:32 damages of of the of the right um they 09:36 they're just they're just too political 09:37 in their commitments the evangelicalism 09:40 avoids therapy it uh avoids science it's 09:43 anti-science 09:44 and here's okay here's the thing 09:47 i hope i hope i don't get misunderstood 09:49 there is truth in every one of those 09:51 complaints 09:54 i don't think every one of those 09:55 complaints is true 09:58 and that's why it makes those those 09:59 discussions difficult 10:00 because me i want to go 10:03 there's some validity to that 10:05 but that's not 10:06 to say it's totally valid it's kind of 10:08 like someone who says of their parent 10:10 well they did this i mean that mistake 10:11 they made that mistake and they conclude 10:13 therefore they were a bad parent and 10:14 they hate me 10:15 and you're like well you might even be 10:16 right about their mistakes but you might 10:18 be wrong about your conclusion here you 10:20 may be overwhelming and so it's throwing 10:22 out the baby with the bath water um 10:24 this is powerful pr though for the 10:26 progressive christian movement they 10:27 often don't talk about their central 10:28 issues they talk about complaints and 10:30 this is what the emerging church did 10:31 back in the day they were like we'll 10:32 complain about evangelical christianity 10:34 we'll find the worst examples of bad 10:36 things there 10:37 and 10:38 that has set up a bad guy so then then 10:41 we are there for the purists and we're 10:42 the good automatically and so it's not a 10:45 careful or clear way of reasoning about 10:47 life 10:48 but that happens a lot apologizing 10:50 though you might think well i'll just i 10:51 have to just apologize yeah purity 10:52 culture made some mistakes man it's not 10:53 women's fault if men lust after them 10:56 absolutely that's biblical 10:58 jesus like if you look at a woman to 11:00 lust it's probably because of her fault 11:01 because of what she was wearing 11:03 this is not right this is men it's 11:05 always your fault when you have lust 11:06 issues women it's always your fault when 11:08 you have lust issues men it's always 11:09 your fault when you're immodest women 11:11 it's always your fault when you're 11:12 immodest like this is we all take our 11:14 own fault that's a biblical view 11:16 but um but yeah purity culture i guess 11:18 in some cases didn't do that 11:21 the gender stuff there's definitely been 11:23 major issues that have gone on there 11:24 although as you guys will find out as 11:26 i'm about to share my big exhaustive 11:28 study on women in ministry i'm i'm i'm 11:31 not on board with the progressive side 11:33 of this either so um 11:36 so apologizing though won't help that 11:38 much because 11:40 these the way this stuff is used in 11:42 public in discourse is not to get clear 11:45 thinking it's to demonize evangelicalism 11:48 as this sort of boogeyman 11:50 so that progressive christians to 11:52 justify whatever they're doing all they 11:54 must do is point at the evils of the 11:56 other 11:57 okay this is the same as our political 11:59 environment everybody all they do is 12:00 point at the evils of the other side and 12:02 then a lot of us who are looking for 12:03 clarity are like i don't know what's 12:04 going on 12:07 sorry if i'm starting fires 12:11 just being real okay so let's talk about 12:13 not about just the the complaints 12:15 against evangelicals um because to me 12:17 evangelical has always meant i really 12:19 believe in this core doctrines of the 12:20 faith i have a very high view of 12:21 scripture and that kind of 12:22 evangelicalism i'm all about and i want 12:24 to keep holding on to 12:26 when it comes to jesus though 12:28 surprisingly in progressive christianity 12:30 this is a major symptom there's a wide 12:31 variety of views they do not agree with 12:33 each other 12:34 richard rohr who again is like he 12:36 influences the influencers every 12:38 progressive christian pastor and leader 12:40 reads richard rohr right every other 12:42 podcaster has him on as a guest and so 12:46 he 12:46 he believes in like a pantheistic what 12:48 he calls the cosmic christ 12:51 that when god breathed creation into the 12:52 world that was the first incarnation of 12:54 the christ which makes the universe 12:58 christ which is your christ jesus was 13:00 like the supreme example of this 13:02 this is not this is like a mixture of 13:04 like kind of a buddhist 13:06 kind of buddhist mixed with pantheism 13:09 smashed into christian terminology 13:12 is what it is um but that's richard rohr 13:13 his christ is the spirit that embedded 13:16 in is embedded in and makes up 13:17 everything in the universe jesus just a 13:19 supreme example of it 13:21 so then you can look internally for that 13:23 inner sort of christ voice 13:25 we'll get to this a little bit later 13:27 that will guide you spiritually 13:29 now that is not christianity by any 13:32 any stretch this is definitely apostasy 13:35 others however think jesus is in the 13:37 progressive christian movement jesus is 13:38 just a good teacher he's just a good 13:40 spiritual teacher though his actual 13:42 teachings are very selectively used they 13:44 very much love the sermon on the mount 13:46 until it gets to the part where jesus is 13:48 like you know 13:49 not one jot or tittle of the law like 13:51 let's ignore that part but the love 13:53 stuff for the blessed all i love men 13:54 those those blesseds are really good 13:57 so the very selective use of jesus jesus 13:59 is highly edited to fit certain purposes 14:02 this is dishonoring to christ ultimately 14:03 if you're going to say you're a follower 14:04 jesus you've got to take all of his 14:05 words and not just some of them 14:07 or else it's just jesus following you 14:10 others however and this surprises some 14:12 people in the progressive christian 14:13 movement there are some who are 14:14 incredibly orthodox in their beliefs 14:16 about jesus he is god in the flesh he 14:19 lived a perfect sinless life he died on 14:21 the cross 14:23 for my sins 14:24 ish 14:25 they'll define that very carefully so 14:27 that it will not include any sort of 14:29 penalty 14:30 or or substitutionary atonement that 14:33 kind of thing 14:34 but they do have at least orthodox 14:36 beliefs about who jesus is now how in in 14:39 the world can there be a movement that 14:42 is cohesive that includes totally 14:44 blasphemous beliefs about jesus and 14:46 totally orthodox beliefs about jesus 14:49 here's the symptom because progressive 14:51 christianity is not about jesus 14:55 this blew me away as i'm studying and 14:57 reading these things and i'm finally 14:58 getting it i'm going 14:59 i'm all about jesus i inherently think 15:01 it's going to be some way let's focus on 15:03 the jesus issue 15:04 it's just not about jesus 15:07 lgbt issues 15:09 they are way more unified on the topic 15:11 of lgbtq stuff than they are on jesus a 15:14 hundred times over 15:16 it's way more important it's way more 15:18 central and it's way more of a fighting 15:19 issue you believe jesus rose you believe 15:21 he didn't well we can just hold hands 15:22 and get along you're lgbt affirming 15:24 you're not get out 15:27 this is this is more of a central issue 15:30 the church on the progressive christian 15:31 view the church is responsible for the 15:33 suicides depression misery alienation 15:35 and forced celibacy 15:37 of people who are not heteronormative or 15:39 whatever terminology you want to use 15:42 they don't see this as a compromise 15:45 the way that many christians would hey i 15:47 want to love those people but i don't 15:48 want to encourage them in a lifestyle 15:50 that's not honoring to god and not not 15:52 what they're made for they don't see it 15:53 that way 15:54 they see it as a mama bear defending her 15:56 cubs 16:00 christians holding the traditional 16:02 christian ethics about sexuality are 16:05 oppressive bullies 16:07 and are hurtful to whole communities of 16:09 people that just need the love of god 16:11 that's how it's viewed that's how it's 16:13 viewed that's the perspective so you can 16:15 try to make a case and you can say well 16:17 the bible's consistent on lgbt all these 16:19 types of issues scholars believe it or 16:21 not even non-christian scholars agree on 16:24 this point 16:26 the church history agrees throughout the 16:28 whole scope of church history there 16:29 hasn't been debate and disagreement on 16:30 this issue 16:31 and of course love does not mean 16:33 approval and agreement 16:35 i could say that i'm blue in the face 16:36 with people and even some people who go 16:37 yeah i agree until 16:39 you don't agree with them and then all 16:40 of a sudden the love doesn't mean that 16:41 anymore 16:43 but 16:45 it feels like it just doesn't matter 16:47 it feels like if you do convince a 16:48 progressive christian that the bible's 16:50 opposed to lgbt like lifestyle not 16:52 people okay the whole point is to rescue 16:54 people from our sins and point us to 16:55 christ a true loving relationship with 16:57 god and each other 16:59 but if you do convince them they tend to 17:01 just change their views of the bible 17:03 because 17:04 the bible's not central either 17:06 jesus isn't central the bible's not 17:08 central and i would argue lgbt stuff 17:09 isn't central either it's still a 17:10 symptom 17:11 we're going to try to get to the heart 17:12 of it in a minute here 17:14 so um jyn hatmaker let me let me quote 17:18 her now she has a new york times 17:19 bestseller called fear free and full of 17:21 fire the guide to being glorious you 17:24 here's what she says about this topic 17:26 and i want you to feel the 17:28 emotional weight of this like you're a 17:30 high school student at lunch surrounded 17:32 by five friends and the issue of lgbt 17:35 comes up and someone looks at you and 17:36 they go you're a christian you go yeah 17:37 and they go why do you hate gay people 17:41 now i'm putting it that way not because 17:42 everybody says that but because it makes 17:44 you feel the pressure of it the social 17:45 pressure of it 17:46 um and then someone turns to you and 17:48 they quote jyn hatmaker who says i lack 17:51 all objectivity i evaluate the merit of 17:54 every idea based on how it bears upon 17:56 actual people when loving god results in 17:59 pain exclusion harm or trauma to people 18:02 then we are absolutely doing the first 18:04 part wrong it is not god in error but us 18:10 this is this is 18:12 this is the thing 18:14 your 18:16 christian values what you think are 18:17 christian values 18:18 on lgbt issues 18:20 are not when it hits the life of real 18:23 people they're hurting them 18:24 so it can't be loving so you must have 18:27 it wrong 18:29 whether that means you've changed your 18:30 view of jesus or of the bible they don't 18:32 care 18:33 you gotta change 18:36 they define love differently than i 18:38 think jesus would 18:39 um jesus i think to rescue us from this 18:42 he says things like if you love me 18:45 obey my commands 18:48 our love for jesus is different than our 18:49 love for people see when i love people i 18:51 don't obey their commands 18:53 when i love jesus i obey his commands 18:55 when i love people i extend kindness and 18:57 self-sacrificial care for them 18:59 but i don't obey their commands 19:01 whenever jesus i obey his commands jesus 19:03 also saves us from this idea because he 19:05 talks about love like a hierarchy which 19:06 i think progressive christians would 19:08 reject i think they have to reject it 19:10 because of their views where jesus says 19:11 love god with all your heart soul mind 19:13 and strength right and love your 19:14 neighbor as yourself you can tell these 19:16 are two very different kinds of things 19:18 i love god with everything i've got i 19:20 love him completely entirely with all i 19:22 have 19:23 my neighbor i love like i love me 19:26 that's lesser love by the way right 19:29 progressive christianity takes all that 19:31 and it kind of reverses it 19:33 um love god by loving your neighbor and 19:36 loving yourself 19:38 but but by do by and there's some truth 19:41 in that but it's not the whole truth and 19:42 this presented as the whole truth when 19:44 we do it that way we're not able to tell 19:46 somebody 19:47 your life is your life is wrong 19:49 if they hear it as i don't love you we 19:51 have to change what we say 19:53 and so that's an interesting dynamic 19:55 that's going on there um john pavlovitz 19:58 i was trying to look at how progressive 19:59 christians define love he has a book 20:01 called if god is love don't be a jerk 20:06 which is actually not great advice 20:09 i just think of all whenever i hear 20:10 policies on how christians have to act i 20:12 just start processing biblical stories 20:15 you're like jesus when like overturn the 20:16 money changers tables 20:18 like dude that was that guy's livelihood 20:21 like that that was somebody's money 20:23 table right 20:25 he released the doves 20:28 he released them the birds somebody 20:30 owned those 20:33 like that they'd be like well you say 20:35 jesus is all loving and everything like 20:36 that but he like released my birds 20:39 and got rid of them 20:41 i just or like paul the apostle who goes 20:43 into a synagogue and he's like hey guys 20:46 you know me i'm that famous rabbi i'm 20:48 here to tell you that i was completely 20:49 wrong jesus is in fact the messiah and 20:52 i'm now going to argue with your 20:54 synagogue leader in front of the 20:55 synagogue 20:57 embarrass 20:58 the tar out of them 20:59 in front of 21:00 everybody i i feel like 21:03 what modern sensibilities about what 21:05 love means would be like what paul you 21:06 really shouldn't do that 21:09 right because we're we're just we're 21:10 missing something there and it's not 21:12 it's we don't have the priority of 21:12 loving god first that filters all other 21:15 priorities so john pavlovic says this 21:18 in his book if god is love don't be a 21:19 jerk page 95. it doesn't matter how much 21:22 phobic christians sincerely believe 21:24 they're loving sinners 21:26 if they ignore the pain 21:28 the pain expressed to them by lgbtq 21:31 human beings and it doesn't matter if 21:33 they tell themselves that they're just 21:35 confronting immoral behavior in the name 21:37 of god if the methods they use inflict 21:39 greater injury 21:41 now let's pause for a moment reflect 21:43 that john pavlovic doesn't care that he 21:45 just called christians phobic 21:47 and horrible people 21:49 and that he inflicted injury and pain 21:51 upon them and that's going to be because 21:52 there's a major inconsistency in 21:54 progressive christians which is 21:55 privileging certain people over others 21:59 but they are you against privilege but 22:00 it's all privilege 22:02 focused i think 22:03 um 22:05 but this is the view it's like hey look 22:07 if you're hurting them you've got to be 22:08 wrong and so all we need is for people 22:10 to say hey look 22:12 you're hurting me 22:14 so you have to change your theology 22:18 this i'm going to coin a term here i 22:20 mean i'm sure someone has said it 22:22 somewhere but we'll call it storytelling 22:24 as 22:24 truth-making storytelling as 22:27 truth-making 22:28 so like let's say we hear a story about 22:29 a gay man who felt outcast depressed 22:31 suicidal until finding love and 22:33 acceptance in a progressive christian 22:34 community that finally embraced him and 22:36 his partner as they are and now he's 22:38 joyful and now he's happy and now he 22:40 serves in the church 22:42 that story 22:43 is meant to tell you that you guys have 22:45 to have this wrong because look this man 22:48 is very happy and satisfied now but when 22:50 he was doing things the way you say he 22:52 was very depressed and suicidal and 22:54 unhappy 22:55 his story his story of satisfaction 22:57 proves you're wrong now you realize this 22:58 is a different way of doing theology 23:01 right you're used to maybe opening your 23:02 bible and going well it seems pretty 23:04 clear 23:06 here instead we're going to say hold on 23:08 slow down nobody really knows what that 23:10 means 23:11 we're going to listen to the stories of 23:13 these real people 23:14 aren't you supposed to love people and 23:16 so you feel that this draws plus it 23:18 feels nice man 23:20 like i'm not i'm not trying to write it 23:21 i'm trying to understand the attraction 23:23 it feels very nice look i have a desire 23:25 for catharsis that is me getting along 23:26 with everybody 23:28 and 23:29 this feels good that would draw me 23:31 towards progressive christian stuff 23:34 so there's a problem of counter stories 23:37 uh so you get stories of people who say 23:39 hey i'm like i was in the the homosexual 23:41 lifestyle i thought i was happy but i 23:43 came out now i'm fulfilled and joyous in 23:45 a new way that i never knew before in 23:47 christ 23:48 those kind of counter stories are really 23:49 a problem because if storytelling is 23:51 truth-making how do you pick which story 23:53 to believe and so progressive christians 23:55 are forced to say well either good for 23:57 you 23:59 right hey that's good for you 24:00 but now let's just let's loosen up the 24:02 rules let's not make it about rules 24:03 let's make it about personal 24:04 satisfaction 24:05 okay so yeah that's good for you you 24:06 found it that way but don't put that on 24:08 anybody else each person could find 24:09 their own thing or their stories are 24:11 doubted 24:12 um in a conversation sean mcdowell who 24:15 was speaking yesterday he had with a 24:16 progressive christian they both told 24:18 stories 24:20 the progressive christian told the story 24:21 about the man who found total 24:22 satisfaction in same-sex relationships 24:24 in a progressive christian community 24:26 and 24:28 sean told stories 24:29 about numerous people he'd known who 24:30 talked about satisfaction in christ when 24:32 they gave up those lifestyles 24:34 and what was interesting was the 24:36 response 24:37 the progressive christian responded like 24:38 he had to pick which stories to believe 24:40 and he goes i have a hard time honestly 24:42 believing those stories 24:44 because it's storytelling is 24:45 truth-making now me i'm like i believe 24:48 all those stories 24:49 i just think 24:50 my 24:51 satisfaction does not prove the goodness 24:54 and truthfulness of a thing now that 24:56 might not seem like a big deal to you 24:57 but it seems like a pretty significant 24:58 worldview shift on this topic 25:01 just because you're satisfied in jesus 25:02 doesn't mean it's true 25:04 just because you're satisfied in a 25:06 lifestyle that the bible seems to say is 25:08 incorrect doesn't make it a good 25:09 lifestyle there are other measures of 25:12 truth beyond this i'm trying to hold 25:13 that consistently 25:16 um but these counter stories are a 25:18 problem we'll we'll see how they are 25:19 resolving this now i think moving 25:20 forward but um the bible says it's wrong 25:24 that maybe it's unnatural or it's 25:25 harmful that it brings judgment in pain 25:26 no no no no this is not our measure the 25:29 stories prove that it's good 25:31 so you have to change your view on those 25:32 other things 25:34 this is a key symptom i think it really 25:35 gets us at the heart of the problem to 25:37 address the appendicitis or you want to 25:38 call it 25:39 um so there's also inconsistencies that 25:41 i'll just briefly mention 25:43 they often rail against doctrine we 25:45 don't have doctrine we don't have dogma 25:47 but they do and they're extremely 25:48 dogmatic about it um this is just 25:50 reality there's just there's there's a 25:52 ton of important doctrine it's just that 25:54 it's a different doctrine than they're 25:55 used to they're not the doctrines 25:56 they're complaining about they're the 25:57 doctrines they're promoting they say 26:00 that ultimately god is kind of going to 26:01 be defined as 26:03 you define god from your inner this is 26:05 one reason why they avoid doctrine 26:07 because it avoids your ability to define 26:08 god 26:09 for yourself 26:11 although they would think we're 26:12 discovering god i'm looking internally 26:14 and i'm sort of discovering who god is 26:15 but we won't push who god is on anybody 26:18 because we don't want to hinder each 26:19 person's individual expression of what 26:21 that looks like 26:23 but god is definitely lgbt approving 26:27 right 26:27 all i'm suggesting here is that there's 26:29 an inconsistency here we don't know for 26:31 sure you know you discover god we're not 26:33 trying to push doctrines but god is 26:35 absolutely affirming 26:37 for sure 26:38 for sure and if you don't think so it's 26:40 because you're phobic or you're hateful 26:41 or you're bigot or you're basically just 26:43 like kind of a spirit you're spiritually 26:45 slow 26:46 you know what i mean you're like 26:48 underdeveloped it's kind of a thing 26:50 so um they don't have certainty 26:53 certainty is bad 26:54 certainty is there's whole books but 26:56 written by progressives about the 26:57 badness of certainty and the glorying 26:59 and not being certain about things but 27:01 the things they're very certain about 27:02 they never notice they have certainty 27:04 about that stuff so there's there's no 27:07 mirror again there's no mirror and it's 27:10 a hard thing to hold a mirror up to our 27:11 own world views to make sure we're being 27:13 consistent but progressive cushioning is 27:14 not consistent at all they're certainly 27:16 lgbt affirming they're certainly 27:18 pro-choice they're certainly 27:19 anti-evangelical they all agree purity 27:21 culture is a disaster 27:23 they all they all agree on all those 27:25 qualities they're very certain about it 27:26 they're certain they they don't 27:29 like those things 27:30 loving 27:32 um 27:33 is also uh 27:36 inconsistent 27:37 love is an inconsistent thing good 27:39 there's different versions of love we 27:41 think about like smiling at people and 27:43 being gracious and nice and stuff like 27:44 that like well that's that's like the 27:45 lowest rung of lug of love in my opinion 27:48 um 27:49 love is like self-sacrifice for the good 27:51 and benefit of others that's that's like 27:53 more up on the top as a christian i'm 27:54 talking about like what jesus did i 27:56 don't know if jesus smiled at everybody 27:58 that he met 28:00 but i know he died for everybody who 28:01 sinned right like that there's just a 28:03 difference that's going on there 28:06 so those are um some uh some of the 28:08 inconsistencies 28:10 um let's talk about how they treat the 28:12 bible 28:15 when you show them that the bible 28:16 clearly disagrees with them how many of 28:17 you done this you talked to progressive 28:18 christian whether they call themselves 28:20 that or not you show them this verse 28:21 that verse and they just don't care does 28:24 that happen to you 28:26 and 28:26 were you like i feel like i got cheated 28:29 because i thought we were having a 28:30 discussion about the bible as if it 28:32 mattered 28:34 you argued for three hours that this 28:36 verse didn't mean that and i did a lot 28:38 of work to try to show you and 28:40 demonstrate that it really does mean 28:41 that and it is the it is the best 28:43 explanation of and then in the end you 28:45 didn't care 28:46 right in the end you were like okay so 28:48 fine so it says that so what 28:51 and you're like wait something else is 28:53 going on here what is going on here most 28:55 progressive christians agree that the 28:57 bible's important and it's a good source 28:59 for at least some spiritual truth 29:01 most of them will agree pretty much all 29:03 on that but the vast majority of them 29:05 will also think it's majorly flawed 29:07 may i add them to a group of other 29:09 people that believe this too 29:11 muslims the bible is majorly flawed even 29:13 though they think that is is inspired 29:16 mormons 29:18 only as translated correctly 29:21 which which ends up being a nonsense 29:22 phrase because it just ends up being 29:24 only winner degrees with mormon doctrine 29:27 right 29:28 pick a group jehovah's witnesses oh yeah 29:30 the bible's absolutely our authority but 29:31 we had to make our own translation 29:32 because every other translation got 29:33 things wrong 29:36 especially about jesus 29:39 every group does this they find a way of 29:41 dethroning the scriptures as the 29:43 spiritual authority and so the bible's 29:44 majorly flawed here they start to sound 29:46 like pop atheists i interact with online 29:48 the bible promotes slavery genocide 29:50 human sacrifice patriarchy it's been 29:52 changed it's been translated and 29:54 translated and what you have is a 29:55 translation of a translation of a 29:56 translation of a translation 29:58 i mean that's not factually true but 30:00 this is this is the meme that goes 30:01 around 30:03 it's ultimately not fully reliable 30:06 now here's what's interesting i want you 30:07 to feel this 30:08 if i was to tell you the bible has 30:10 corrupt moral values and it's been 30:12 changed and it's not fully reliable this 30:14 would probably cause you distress 30:17 if you're a typical christian throughout 30:18 the history of the world 30:21 to a progressive christian this brings 30:22 comfort 30:24 this is a symptom 30:26 why am i comforted by the idea that the 30:29 bible 30:30 is wrong 30:32 that's a symptom 30:33 something's going on something it's 30:35 alleviating a problem that i've got 30:38 so the bible has major flaws whatever is 30:41 causing progressive christianity needs 30:44 to find some way around the bible's 30:45 teachings 30:46 so first they tend to attack 30:48 it and i see this over and over again in 30:50 the books and the talks 30:52 then they find a new way of using it 30:54 because they don't want to abandon the 30:55 bible because you can't call it 30:56 progressive christianity 31:00 so 31:00 they want to use the bible but first it 31:02 has to be dethroned it has to be sort of 31:04 filtered it has you have to get a pair 31:05 of scissors so you could cut things out 31:08 this helps us see the real issue behind 31:10 progressive christianity so i'm going to 31:11 talk to you now about how they use the 31:12 bible i've seen this before this symptom 31:14 and others let me ask the um ally what's 31:17 my end time supposed to be so that i 31:18 don't uh 31:25 i just have i just have these five pages 31:27 left 31:29 10 20. all right 31:30 all right so i can pace myself for you 31:31 guys it's not like youtube where i just 31:33 go for an hour and a half or two hours 31:39 okay all right um okay so the 31:41 progressive christian problem is we have 31:42 we have values wherever they're coming 31:44 from we'll talk about that in a second 31:45 we have values that are central to us 31:47 that seem to disagree with the plain 31:48 teaching of scripture and the 31:49 traditional values of the christian 31:52 christians throughout history so we need 31:54 a way of filtering the bible like this 31:56 is why many progressive christians on 31:58 their way in they're like progressive 31:59 christianity and like six months later a 32:02 third or atheist a third or 32:03 non-religious and maybe like a thirty 32:05 percent are still progressive christians 32:07 it's a it's a doorway it's not actually 32:09 a building they're going to it's just 32:11 persecution is a doorway out of 32:13 christianity 32:15 um 32:16 very sadly okay so you need an external 32:18 filter to decide what's wrong with the 32:19 bible 32:20 so what 32:22 happens now as jesus shows back up 32:24 jesus is the way to disagree with the 32:26 bible for many progressive christians 32:28 let me explain how that works 32:30 richard rohr says this listen carefully 32:31 this quote 32:32 he says 32:34 jesus consistently ignored or even 32:37 denied exclusionary punitive and 32:39 triumphalist texts in his own inspired 32:42 hebrew bible in favor of passages that 32:45 emphasized inclusion mercy and honesty 32:48 for example referencing two passages 32:50 from exodus and leviticus jesus suggests 32:54 the opposite 32:56 and now he quotes jesus you've heard it 32:58 was said eye for an eye in tooth for a 32:59 tooth but i tell you turn the other 33:01 cheek 33:02 richard rohr's interpretation remember i 33:04 told you that i love the sermon on the 33:05 mount 33:06 richard rohr's interpretation of jesus 33:07 here is he's actually disagreeing with 33:09 the bible 33:11 now if you actually 33:13 study the bible 33:16 and look at the real history of the time 33:18 you'll realize eye for an eye is a 33:20 biblical text about governmental 33:22 penalties being the punishment fits the 33:24 crime that's all that is 33:25 jesus is confronting people using this 33:27 as an excuse for personal vengeance 33:31 oh so like if you if you steal someone's 33:33 cow you owe them a cow or two 33:36 right okay under exodus right there's 33:37 this eye for an eye equal it's it what 33:40 it was an illustration it's not like 33:41 we're just running around poking out 33:42 eyes there's the quote people love and i 33:44 forgot it makes the whole world blind 33:45 and it's like not if you're paying 33:46 attention to the command it doesn't like 33:48 this is not what it means you know 33:51 eye for an eye is literally just saying 33:53 equal justice 33:55 um jesus is against people using this 33:57 for personal vengeance right richard 33:58 rohr interprets this as jesus publicly 34:01 teaching to a group of jews 34:03 hey guys i know the bible said this but 34:06 the bible was wrong 34:08 that's his interpretation of jesus this 34:10 is consistent in progressive christians 34:12 jesus is often interpreted this way 34:15 richard ward goes on he says he jesus 34:18 read the scriptures in a spiritual 34:20 selective and questioning way i don't 34:23 think ancients would have understood the 34:25 phrase questioning way 34:27 this is a modern thing 34:29 although i love questions you guys know 34:30 that i'm just saying this is 34:32 it's um 34:35 it's foofy 34:37 um jesus had a deeper and wider eye 34:41 and 34:41 that knew which passages were creating a 34:44 path for god and which passages were 34:46 merely cultural self-serving and 34:48 legalistic additions 34:51 right that's why jesus said the 34:52 scripture cannot be broken 34:54 no richard roars jesus says i can show 34:56 you how to break the scripture properly 35:01 what's wrong with this 35:03 um well you obviously have to do careful 35:04 reading this is this is part of our 35:06 equip you want to protect people from 35:07 progressive christianity teach them to 35:08 read the bible in context 35:10 because when they get to the jesus parts 35:12 where they're quoting jesus they're just 35:13 immediately going to pull their hair out 35:15 and you're like man i know progressive 35:16 christian is attractive but it's just so 35:18 stupid you know it's just it's so 35:20 irrational 35:22 it's so not concerned about the jesus 35:24 they say they worship he's a tool 35:27 for some other commitment 35:29 jesus is a bobble head this is our 35:31 culture this way we've been for years 35:32 jesus is the bobble head that nods in 35:34 agreement with whatever you are obsessed 35:36 with 35:37 right every time i hear a politician 35:39 quote the bible 35:41 i'm like 35:42 you don't care about the bible you just 35:44 think it adds authority to you 35:46 for whatever you're saying right now 35:50 we come to scriptures to come underneath 35:52 them 35:53 we come to christ to come underneath 35:54 them but everybody wants to grab the 35:55 bible and jesus like props 35:57 right to promote the thing that they're 35:59 all about 36:01 careful readings needed um this is 36:03 consistent progressive christians are 36:04 always knocking down a straw man they're 36:06 always going to talk about the bible as 36:07 well some this is rich 36:09 pete ends in his book on how to read the 36:11 bible he's like progressive christian 36:12 right he's like you know people go to 36:14 the bible they think it's just this rule 36:16 book it's just a rule book 36:18 and then he goes to argue against the 36:19 bible being a rule book and i'm just 36:20 like well i mean parts of it are a rule 36:22 book 36:23 but you can't you just can't use the 36:25 blanket statement i mean there's like a 36:26 whole section called the law 36:28 right leviticus is a bunch of 36:30 rules 36:32 exodus has whole sections that are just 36:33 rules then there's like poetry there's 36:36 like a love poem in the bible there's 36:38 wisdom in the bible there's ancient 36:40 history in the bible there's allegorical 36:42 content in scriptures although you 36:44 shouldn't make stuff allegorical it's 36:45 not i mean just read it as it is 36:47 we have the life of g so it's not just a 36:49 rule book but neither is it just not a 36:51 rule book 36:53 like read the bible like with your brain 36:55 i mean and this is this is the thing 36:57 pete ends is going to champion this you 36:58 got to read your bible with your whole 36:59 brain but they're always going to come 37:01 against a straw man of christian values 37:03 so if you are raised in a church that is 37:05 high respect for scripture but low 37:07 thought on scripture you're going to be 37:09 very prone to fall to progressive 37:10 christianity 37:12 because you're going to you don't know 37:14 what the bible actually talks about 37:15 slavery what's going on there 37:18 um if if someone convinces you well the 37:20 bible was supporting slavery now you're 37:23 going to be like that that tinder that's 37:25 ready to catch fire and say yes you're 37:28 right we need a pair of scissors we got 37:29 to find a pair of scissors and then 37:30 jesus becomes the pair of scissors 37:32 so he goes on richard rohr goes on to 37:34 say that jesus ignored most of the bible 37:36 he says jesus talks much more out of his 37:39 own experience of god 37:41 and humanity remember that phrase his 37:43 own experience of god and humanity 37:45 instead of teaching like the scribes and 37:47 pharisees who operated out of their own 37:49 form 37:50 of case law by quoting previous sources 37:53 oh this is so annoying 37:55 richard were so deceptive 37:58 okay the scribes and pharisees quoted 38:00 not case law like in the generic sense 38:03 because case law would include old 38:04 testament they quoted previous teachers 38:07 they would always quote other rabbis and 38:08 other sources 38:10 jesus quoted straight from scripture and 38:12 then offered an interpretation directly 38:13 of the bible the problem is that he he 38:15 subverted their um their their 38:18 traditions and went straight to the text 38:20 of scripture richard rohr wants to take 38:22 it as though jesus was ignoring the 38:24 bible itself 38:26 jesus obviously wasn't doing this 38:27 um so jesus disagrees with the bible he 38:30 openly contradicts it he leaves out 38:31 stuff he doesn't agree with so rory then 38:33 gives you this set of instructions on 38:34 how to how you should read the bible 38:36 and this is consistent amongst 38:38 progressive christians different 38:38 versions of this meditate deeply let go 38:41 of previous beliefs specifically 38:44 previous christian beliefs let go of 38:46 those um 38:48 and then 38:49 um wait for a voice from god 38:52 from within 38:55 then you're going to listen then you're 38:56 going to hear then it's going to be 38:57 transformative and what's happening is i 38:59 can no longer take the play meaning of 39:00 the text i know i'm going to disagree 39:02 with it but there's going to be this 39:03 inner voice that tells me what i should 39:05 believe 39:07 who's the authority now 39:08 me 39:09 my heart actually let me play for you 39:11 guys an example of 39:13 how rich your war talks about the bible 39:14 here's here's we'll play clip number one 39:16 that is uh richard rohr 39:19 the dalai lama in one sentence 39:22 says for me what it took paul the entire 39:26 letter of the romans to to say 39:29 you lutherans love romans and i do too 39:32 actually 39:33 but god it's tortured logic oh god 39:37 paul is trying so get much to get us 39:39 beyond the law 39:41 but just does know how to say it in a 39:43 simple phrase well the dalai lama does 39:46 he says 39:47 learn and obey the rules very well 39:52 so you will know how to break them 39:54 properly 39:58 let's laugh to our graves 40:03 learn the rules so you'll know how to 40:05 break them that's his approach to 40:06 scripture learn it so you know how to 40:08 disagree with it in a sense um anyway i 40:10 could talk for a while about that weird 40:12 clip but i'm gonna play another one 40:13 here's brian zond he believes that jesus 40:16 is sort of an internal voice in him 40:18 and he can use this jesus with him when 40:20 he wants to disagree with the bible 40:21 let's play that clip 40:23 it's all because of jesus so i never go 40:25 wandering around in the old testament 40:27 without jesus so at any given moment i 40:30 can pause and i can say jesus what do 40:33 you think of that and jesus can say to 40:35 me brian what do you think well it seems 40:38 to me jesus that in the light of what 40:40 you taught us that we have to rethink 40:41 this passage and i think jesus says amen 40:46 bobble head jesus says amen 40:48 what do you think jesus well what do you 40:50 think 40:52 well jesus in my in my amazing wisdom of 40:55 life i think that the bible's wrong here 40:56 and he said yes brian you're very wise 40:59 you know 41:00 this is that's progressive christianity 41:02 in a nutshell um 41:04 so pete ends he tells us that god that 41:07 you know passages in the bible where 41:08 that are like god told me to do what 41:11 pete says god never told him to do that 41:12 they just thought he did 41:15 now he's a legit scholar 41:17 like legit scholar with real credentials 41:19 okay um greg boyd uses something called 41:21 a cruciform hermeneutic and i'll try to 41:23 it's really 41:24 even when he tries to explain it people 41:25 are like what's he talking about 41:26 the basic approach to the bible is this 41:28 on the cross 41:30 jesus 41:31 was 41:32 suffering for your sins he looked like 41:34 he had done the things you had done 41:36 so in the in the old testament we use a 41:38 cruciform hermeneutic and we say in the 41:39 old testament god isn't he's not like 41:41 that 41:42 he's just letting himself look the way 41:44 you look 41:46 judgment isn't god being angry or 41:47 bringing wrath or judgment or cruel you 41:49 know anything like that upon people it's 41:51 him him showing you what your anger 41:53 looks like 41:56 this is really clever 41:59 but completely unsustainable when you 42:01 actually look at how jesus talks about 42:03 the old testament 42:05 because he's looking at the cross and 42:06 his vision of the cross as a way of 42:08 interpreting the old testament it's just 42:10 a weird approach 42:11 but jesus himself talks about judgment 42:13 quite a lot 42:16 the bible seems to think that god's 42:17 wrath is good 42:19 and it's uncomfortable and hard for me 42:21 and i don't always appreciate god's 42:22 judgment but i'm not so arrogant as to 42:24 think i'm right and he's wrong 42:28 so 42:29 one day we'll appreciate god's judgment 42:30 and one day that will happen but 42:33 the inner voice 42:35 guides you on what truth to believe uh 42:37 glennon doyle is probably the most 42:39 famous of these people that i was 42:40 looking into she wrote the best-selling 42:41 book untamed she's got like almost 2 42:43 million followers on instagram right now 42:45 she's she was a christian blogger who 42:47 left her husband for a lesbian 42:48 relationship 42:49 but this was not a bad thing in her view 42:52 this was an epiphany a religious 42:54 epiphany and she writes about it you're 42:55 supposed to put yourself and your 42:57 desires first 42:58 this is part of the awa the awakening 43:00 that she experienced she says maybe eve 43:02 was never meant to be our warning maybe 43:04 she was meant to be our model 43:07 own your wanting 43:10 eat 43:11 the apple 43:12 there's a quote from her this is 43:14 considered but you don't understand you 43:15 feel like it's bad this is like the 43:17 epiphany 43:19 oh like yes 43:20 my inner desires are telling me what my 43:23 purpose is 43:24 my need for satisfaction that is my 43:26 spiritual guide 43:28 this is progressive christianity this is 43:30 the heart 43:31 it's not about jesus it's not about the 43:32 bible those are just the things that 43:33 we're bringing along as bobble heads on 43:35 our journey 43:38 i like this bobblehead analogy i hadn't 43:40 thought of it it wasn't in my notes i 43:41 was like 43:42 i should have put that in my nose that 43:43 was good 43:45 it's really accurate alisa childers 43:47 rightly evaluates glendon doyle and says 43:49 by reversing the biblical narrative she 43:51 turns the christian worldview on its 43:52 head and i love this quote from her she 43:54 says sin is no longer what's wrong with 43:56 the world 43:57 but unrealized ambitions 44:01 doesn't that make sense that's that's 44:02 what's tying together lgb and t 44:06 this is my this is my inner need 44:08 and it's i believe it's a spiritual need 44:10 needs to be filled 44:12 for me to achieve these dreams and these 44:14 ambitions that i've got 44:16 so it's exhilarating it's like an 44:17 adventure when you cast off the shackles 44:20 of christianity that you've been raised 44:22 with and you're able to sort of forge 44:24 your own path with jesus and the bible 44:25 along to approve of you as you seek into 44:28 look at your inner self to find your 44:29 ambitions and 44:30 so when you go with them at the when you 44:32 quote the bible hypocrisy but the bible 44:34 says that's wrong you're attacking their 44:36 core ambitions their inner self you're 44:39 destroying their spiritual journey 44:41 this is why they can't stand you in 44:43 their fellowships 44:45 why they're willing to hold hands with 44:47 anybody who agrees or disagrees on other 44:48 issues 44:50 it's exhilarating 44:53 my beliefs end up fitting so well with 44:54 what i want 44:56 it's a reinvented spirituality that's 44:58 tailor-made to make you feel good about 44:59 yourself 45:01 so they're very united so what's the 45:03 heart here's my diagnosis of progressive 45:04 christianity at least as my current 45:06 understanding of it maybe i'll grow and 45:07 learn learn it better my diagnosis the 45:09 thing that's at the heart of it is that 45:11 your inner sense of goodness and 45:12 personal purpose is your spiritual 45:14 authority and compass 45:16 your inner sense of goodness 45:18 not just all your desires your inner 45:20 sense of goodness 45:22 and your personal purpose two different 45:25 things there 45:26 they are your spiritual authority 45:29 it's not just that you are the authority 45:32 it's that your heart's desires 45:33 particularly the ones that feel good and 45:35 proper to you for whatever reason 45:37 they're your spiritual guide so hate and 45:38 bitterness aren't positive 45:40 and we don't want to feed those those 45:41 don't feel good they don't feel right 45:43 but same-sex relationships absolutely is 45:45 as long as it's couched in uh who i 45:47 really am deep down and what i really 45:49 need to be to be complete and satisfied 45:52 this is why uh transgender has to be 45:53 supported too because it's a sense of 45:56 this is who i'm supposed to be i'm a i'm 45:58 a man trapped in a woman's body i'm a 46:00 woman trapped in a man's body my inner 46:01 need 46:02 like if you're gonna feed yours you 46:04 gotta you gotta approve of mine too 46:06 and that feels good 46:08 like it does feel good just go around 46:10 approving everybody all the time i mean 46:11 you end up becoming like um insane 46:16 in reality when you do this but but i 46:18 mean you guys know people who do this 46:20 all they do is approve people all the 46:21 time and you're like you're a walking 46:23 contradiction but you're very you get 46:25 along with everybody really well so 46:27 so i'm just saying i understand the 46:29 attraction that's there 46:31 so same-sex relationships um they will 46:34 never come against it they'll come 46:35 against abuse in relationships abuse and 46:37 same-sex relationships but not 46:39 the nature of the relationship nothing 46:40 could be wrong with that the the 46:42 progressive christian has to embrace it 46:44 is true 46:45 a trans person only has to say this is 46:47 who i feel i'm supposed to be and it's 46:49 like a deep core identity thing and then 46:50 you have to approve it because the 46:52 internal your internal light your 46:54 internal guide this is the thing that 46:55 shows you who you are universalism has 46:57 to be true because if your journey and 46:59 your heart are at the center of 47:01 spirituality that is completely in 47:03 conflict with god one day judging you 47:07 you're the hero of the journey 47:09 of course you have to win in the end i 47:11 can't end with you being the bad guy 47:14 like that that doesn't work with that 47:16 world view so universalism is across the 47:18 board uh whatever they think of heaven 47:20 they definitely approve of universalism 47:23 um rejection of constricting doctrine is 47:27 definitely important because 47:28 constricting doctrines are where i place 47:30 requirements on you right eric in the 47:32 front row here just to make you feel 47:33 suddenly nervous for no reason 47:37 so you're you know if if i give you a 47:38 doctrine now i'm limiting that journey 47:41 where you look for this inner light to 47:42 guide and direct you towards these these 47:44 spiritual experiences so i can't give 47:46 you doctrines this is why doctrines it's 47:48 not that they're just wrong it's that 47:49 they're they hurt my path 47:52 this is this is part of the reason let 47:54 me show you guys this in action uh 47:56 here's a clip from rob bell 47:58 we'll go to clip number four i'm 48:00 skipping clip number three i'm deleting 48:01 it because you guys will never know all 48:02 the wonderful truths that i hid in clip 48:04 number three 48:07 it was just brandon robertson denying 48:09 the bible but um we'll go to clip number 48:11 four robel 48:14 uh and then you think about for many 48:16 people for roughly 1400 years in western 48:18 culture you've had this idea of original 48:19 sin which is that which is deepest 48:21 within a human is wrong off broken 48:24 sinful 48:26 so 48:26 no wonder people end up not able to 48:29 trust their own inner knowing 48:31 they've been taught that if you look far 48:32 enough inside of yourself all you'll see 48:34 is evil and darkness 48:36 but what's fascinating is the actual 48:38 tradition begins genesis 1 all human 48:40 beings bear the divine image 48:43 that which is deepest within you 48:45 is good yeah of course you we have 48:46 tremendous capacities to make a mess of 48:48 things nobody's fuzzy on this 48:51 well i think he's fuzzy on it you have a 48:53 tremendous capacity to make a mess of 48:54 things 48:55 but your inner knowing is your guide for 48:57 all spiritual truths like those don't 48:58 work together actually 49:00 um 49:01 okay let's look at this in action your 49:02 inner knowing is right i think glenn 49:03 doyle talked about her inner knowing rob 49:05 bell uh glennon doyle brian zion greg 49:08 boyd pete ends 49:11 fill in the blank 49:12 your inner knowing or 49:15 the jesus that speaks to you privately 49:17 becomes your guide but that jesus of 49:19 course is bobble heads to whatever you 49:20 say 49:21 so okay i want to see the next clip is 49:22 this in action it's a bit of a longer 49:24 clip but this is in action it's it's 49:25 it's a debate discussion between rob 49:27 bell and um andrew wilson i think it is 49:30 and um 49:31 andrew wilson did a really good job with 49:32 it but notice the two moves robel does 49:36 you don't know what the bible says it's 49:38 fuzzy he doesn't have to say it's wrong 49:39 all he has to say is at least it's fuzzy 49:40 you don't know that it says that 49:42 and the second move will be 49:44 so we have to let people's stories tell 49:46 us what reality really is 49:48 so let's let's play that 49:52 now 49:54 i'd just be interested to know what what 49:55 it is about that makes you feel 49:56 confident that that this isn't just rob 49:59 bell 50:01 going liberal this is actually rob bell 50:02 being true to christ being true to the 50:05 scriptures 50:07 well i i 50:08 think the better question is what does 50:10 it look like when it's lived out and 50:12 i've been in lots and lots and lots of 50:14 settings with lots of friends and lots 50:16 of people 50:17 who have same-sex relationships and 50:21 it's not destructive and it's not evil 50:23 and it's not 50:25 it's a part of how churches are it's a 50:27 part of how life is 50:29 and 50:30 it's fine that's the that's surely 50:32 that's the to beg the question though 50:34 isn't it to say i've been in lots of 50:35 friends relationships with people who 50:36 are doing this and it's not destructive 50:38 or it's not evil surely god gets to 50:40 define that doesn't he over and above 50:43 not to speak about the individual's 50:44 concern but god gets to provide that 50:46 definition rather than my observation 50:47 it's like you can imagine people in the 50:49 period of one or two kings which i'm 50:50 going through in my quiet times at the 50:51 moment going well actually i know lots 50:53 of people who who worship at the high 50:54 places and and they still follow yahweh 50:56 that's great and the the scriptures 50:58 don't seem to have that attitude they 50:59 seem to be saying no no there is there 51:01 are moments there's a lot of them where 51:02 jesus said if anybody wants to follow me 51:04 he needs to hate in the sense of lesser 51:06 love these all of these things that you 51:08 might otherwise have to lose if you 51:09 follow me and of course paul was like 51:11 that it cost him his life and it because 51:13 it cost jesus's life obviously he caused 51:14 him sexual relationships neither of them 51:16 had those things so it is sort of 51:18 doesn't god get to draw that line rather 51:20 than i don't say you i know there's 51:22 others who are doing it too but why 51:23 isn't that why isn't the fact that 51:24 scripture speaks that way and the fact 51:26 that 51:26 paul moses jesus speak that way why 51:28 isn't that the end of the conversation 51:29 in terms of defining 51:31 what something might be to be evil and 51:33 destructive what something looks like 51:37 your 51:38 interpretation of verses 51:40 mind no not my interpretation well of 51:42 course it is we're all doing our own 51:43 interpretation of verses but it's not 51:44 only an interpretation of verses it's 51:46 it's an understanding of the sweep of 51:48 scripture starting from the very 51:49 beginning 51:50 where you have one man one woman in 51:52 permanent relationship and he's going 51:53 all the way through 51:53 [Music] 51:55 your understanding of the sweep of 51:56 scriptures well understanding of genesis 51:58 1 51:59 of genesis 2 understanding of the torah 52:01 understanding of the prophets 52:02 understanding of jesus understanding a 52:03 poor revelation of course that's that's 52:04 always what we're talking about but i 52:06 think to say oh but that's your 52:07 understanding of course it is my 52:08 understanding just like yours is yours 52:10 but yours 52:11 unlike mine is obviously in the in the 52:13 face of apparent meanings of lots and 52:15 lots of texts supported by almost every 52:17 scholar and it's also in the face of two 52:19 thousand years of christian tradition in 52:20 which that hasn't been the way people 52:21 have read any of those texts 52:28 there you go 52:30 i'd have to explain yeah it's your 52:31 interpretation it's your view it's your 52:33 perspective those things are wrong okay 52:34 to summarize 52:36 um 52:37 this seems to explain the symptoms uh i 52:40 become my spiritual authority spiritual 52:41 truth is grounded in my personal 52:43 experiences and my perception of my 52:44 goodness the problem is that that's 52:46 actually just being informed by culture 52:48 um culture is pushing the sexual 52:50 revolution expressive individualism yeah 52:52 you might want to google that term and 52:54 when i am being this is why the 52:56 influencers are influenced for a blip 52:59 and they die and they're not actually 53:00 holding sustained things they're just 53:01 showing people the door out of 53:03 christianity 53:04 using the fact that people are like like 53:07 dry tinder to this stuff because culture 53:09 has told you that we're all on a hero 53:12 journey 53:13 and it's about finding you know your 53:15 path and expressing your true self that 53:17 it's ultimately loving me is above 53:18 loving god in all reality god is a as a 53:21 me serving entity ultimately 53:23 so there's a lot more that could be said 53:24 about this i'll just mention this is 53:26 where progressive christianity is 53:27 merging with critical race theory 53:30 and if you're going to be like quicker 53:31 oyster is the boogeyman i'm just going 53:32 to say look critical race 3 being a 53:34 boogeyman is a boogeyman okay let's like 53:36 think about this like adults for a 53:37 second 53:38 critical race theory part of this is the 53:40 while racism is a huge problem don't 53:42 don't don't deny that um critical race 53:45 theory though is is going to come 53:47 alongside and say 53:48 we're going to privilege the stories of 53:51 of people in the category of the 53:53 oppressed their stories are going to 53:55 give us the reality of situations 53:57 and then we'll under privilege we'll 53:59 lower the privilege of those who we 54:00 think in the past have had privilege 54:02 this allows the progressive christian to 54:05 filter the stories that fit their views 54:07 with the stories that don't 54:09 you're heterosexual 54:10 oh well your story isn't privileged 54:13 we have to privilege the stories of the 54:15 lgbt community 54:17 or whereas i think a biblical view is to 54:19 say i'm gonna listen to all your stories 54:20 they tell me about your heartache and 54:21 your life and your experiences 54:23 but they don't tell me the truth of 54:24 reality 54:26 god has an authority to trump even my 54:28 heart and that is consistent in 54:30 scripture so i would share with them 54:31 like jeremiah where he says like the 54:33 prophets are prophesying prophecies of 54:34 their own heart instead of listening to 54:36 my word right or where jesus says that 54:39 scripture cannot be broken or he tells 54:41 us to love god above ourselves or how he 54:42 kept telling people to repent 54:46 and it wasn't just of 54:47 um 54:48 it was it was of all the stuff of all 54:50 this stuff anyway there's a lot more 54:51 that could be said but i'm a lot of time 54:53 so uh thank you guys so much for having 54:54 me i i hope that this helps give you at 54:56 least an angle if i could suggest one 54:58 thing right my mom had appendicitis the 55:00 the cure was to i think just a ripper 55:02 appendix out but 55:04 but um 55:05 but i think the the focus then as we 55:06 discuss things with people that are 55:07 really caught up in progress of 55:08 christianity is maybe start the 55:10 discussion with is god able to tell you 55:12 that your heart is being is mistaken 55:14 even about your own satisfaction in life 55:17 is does god have the authority to tell 55:18 you that you're wrong even about your 55:20 own perceptions of your own life 55:22 does god have that place and if their 55:24 answer is yes 55:25 then you bring in the other things 55:27 biblical support because it's going to 55:28 come back to that but my life is telling 55:30 me 55:31 but my life and you go but wait i think 55:32 god had authority to tell you and this 55:35 is this is like a seem like a bigoted 55:37 christian 55:38 evangelicalism and there are colonial 55:41 something or other going on there but in 55:43 reality it's like it's like in what 55:44 world 55:46 in what world is it reasonable to think 55:49 that humans 55:50 cannot be completely confused 55:53 and corrected by god 55:55 this doesn't seem like brain surgery to 55:57 me so all right well thank you so much 55:59 for having me
1. The Christian faith is founded on three primary calls we see through Jesus;To love God, to love our neighbor, and to love ourselves.
2. The Christian faith is our way of being faithful to God. But it is not the only way.
Christianity is the truth for us. But it is not the only truth.
This principle stems from the reality of the 21st century. We share our lives with people who are Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist. We experience these people as loving and caring by following their religious traditions. To deny that is to deny that God can only draw people with one way. That simply isn’t born out in our experience.
The power of the Christian faith to transform lives does not require it to be exclusively true. Exclusivity is born out of fear. The fear that there is one train to God and if you aren’t on the right train, you’ll go to hell. We believe there are many trains and God welcomes them all.
3. Love of God involves all aspects of life, not just human life.
Care of the Earth and its ecosystems is an expression of Christian faith and stewardship.
This principle stems from our ever-widening understanding of climate change and influence our “carbon footprint” has on the quality of the air, water and soil. Science and religious faith are friends – each informs the other. Wisdom and insight from both are essential for Christian faith. 4. Love of Neighbor means extending kindness and care...
To those in our family and in our local and global communities.
Further, love of neighbor includes affirmation of the LBGTQ community, immigrants, people of other faith traditions and even those who are enemies. 5. Love of self means engaging in spiritual disciplines
Worship, prayer, music, study of the Bible and other literature feeds the mind, heart and spirit.
Love of self also includes giving time for rest, recreation, nurturing friendship, a healthy diet and physical exercise. Love of self requires humility and humor.