|
|
| (25 intermediate revisions by 2 users not shown) |
| Line 1: |
Line 1: |
| | This conversation has been moved to |
|
| |
|
| | | http://www.preparingyou.com/wiki/Unrighteous_mammon |
| == Should or can people run for political office without committing the error of [[Balaam]] ==
| |
| | |
| First, you should realize there are almost no "freemen" because we were all again entangled in the elements of the world. Most people who I have seen who think they have come out at this time are merely bad or rebellious servants of the system their parents sold them into. 2 Peter 2:10 speaks of those who are "Presumptuous [are they], selfwilled". Presumptuous is from the Greek word "tolmetes" which means "a daring man. I have seen very daring men challenge the system but not always seeking to use their talents to build or edify the Kingdom.
| |
| | |
| I have seen them for years neglecting righteousness in exchange for self-righteousness - neglecting family and neighbor and almost never gathering in [[tens]] or doing as Christ commanded.
| |
| | |
| Even those who come out actually answering the call of Christ to be His Church at this time are only "Bondservants of Christ", not freemen.
| |
| Second, God hates the "the deeds of the Nicolaitans".
| |
| | |
| | |
| == What are the deeds of the Nicolaitans ==
| |
|
| |
| | |
| To "run for office" does not necessarily mean you are performing those deeds referenced concerning the [[Nicolaitan]] and [[Balaam]].
| |
| | |
| [[Balaam]] misused his gifts and his relationship with God for personal gain. I know of people who feel led by God to run for office and will actually suffer a financial loss to do so. They are making that sacrifice to protect the people from the present "heavy-handed socialism" and have the desire prevent the abuse of an exercising authority already there.
| |
| | |
| Many people who are voting are doing so in self-defense. There will come temptations for those who do these things but these are not the deeds of the Nicolaitans who desire the personal gain of benefits at the expense of their neighbor.
| |
| | |
| Is the question are they working in the system of the world for personal gain or to actually serve? The answer may be found in asking the question, are the people neglecting to gather and sacrifice in the pattern commanded by Christ while they run for office or seek to lift the burdens from their neighbor? God is the judge.
| |
| | |
| | |
| == Can someone who is seeking the kingdom of God also run for public office ==
| |
|
| |
| | |
| Why did Jesus sit down with publicans which were people holding public office? [[Matthew 9]]:11
| |
| | |
| Remember Jesus was himself running for public office, The King. When he entered Jerusalem he was hailed by the people as king. But it is what he did after taking that office that made him both a righteous king and hated by many.
| |
| | |
| [[Rome]] was originally a [[republic]]. It slowly became socialist and after 500 years it had it first commander in Chief and president who appointed imperial judges. Many Christian minded people were in the Roman government. Paul' s own half-brother held office and his niece by marriage was Claudia, adopted by Emperor Claudius and mentioned in the Bible.
| |
| | |
| Foxe's book of martyrs speaks of many Roman soldiers being Christians. There are cases where judges and even Emperors came to the defense of Christians. We should not create a divide between us and the people of the world. Jesus came that the whole world might be saved. Let only righteousness of God be the divide.
| |
| Remember back with John when soldiers in Luke 3:14 asked what could they do concerning Baptism and the kingdom. That is the beautiful thing about a "free assembly is that you can be a publican and start the process of repentance. People are already entangled in the yoke of bondage. What is more Christ-like than to bring Christ into the halls of the modern Sanhedrin knowing that that is where the enemy resides?
| |
| | |
| It is not a job to be taken lightly.
| |
| | |
| Yes, an ordained minister cannot serve two masters but the people do not have to quit their day job. In fact, they have the opportunity of bringing kingdom values into high places.
| |
| | |
| http://www.preparingyou.com/wiki/Paul_the_Apostle | |
| | |
| | |
| == Is a laborer is worthy of his hire ==
| |
| | |
| | |
| If the people ask you to do a job and you do it are you not worthy of what they promise?
| |
| What if you do more than what you promised and take no extra
| |
| | |
| I do not think that running for political office is the same as "medical license to perform abortions.". If you got a job at planned parenthood and tried to use your position to talk women out of abortion and privately use your money to show them alternatives you would probably get fired very quickly. Can someone seeking to be a Christian be a jailer or a policeman or a judge?
| |
| | |
| Two of the offices that people are running for one is congressional and the other is administrative oversight with little or no executive or lawmaking power. It is a position to expose corruption and protect the interest of the people. A congressional position can be used in the same way.
| |
| | |
| It is what he does in those positions that will make the difference. Both people I know running for office also do many things to promote the kingdom and are in free assemblies. I can not encourage them nor discourage them in anything but righteousness. In both cases, I have no doubt that they will get less for their time and work more than what they are paid.
| |
| | |
| Remember joining a congregation does not put you in the kingdom. If it did they would not be [[free assemblies]]. They do not change your status in the world. What will do that is the world. Only when you enter an order will you be cast out of the world. There may come a day when the individual congregant can opt out like Christians at [[Pentecost]]. But that day is not here yet and people are presently poorly prepared for it.
| |
| | |
| As long as you use [[Mark of the Beast|the number]] of the [[world]] in any shape or form you are still of the [[world]]. Even if you stop using it there is almost no place the world says you are free from them except as a member of an Order described and appointed by Christ. This is because of the debt.
| |
| | |
| A member of an Order is a [[bondservant]] of Christ and therefore of God like the [[Levites]] before them. It is they who cannot serve two masters. Until we get our Pentecost the people remain merchandise. When they start doing what Christ said to do with their whole heart and mind and soul then the system will start talking about kicking them out like they Pharaoh did to Egypt and the Pharisees did to followers of Christ.
| |
| | |
| | |
| === Someone responded with ===
| |
| | |
| | |
| ''"A laborer is worthy of his hire, but he is not entitled to the salary afforded exclusively through tax-fueled covetousness, especially if his platform is explicit about expanding government benefits. When Joseph performed such policies, it is characterized as a snare and a curse which eventually necessitated an Exodus of the people."''
| |
| | |
| A laborer is worthy of his hire if he does the work he is hired to do.
| |
| | |
| If people set up a cooperative, a corporation or even a socialist state the laborer is still worthy of his hire. A [[socialist]] system is often desired based on coveting your neighbor's goods. But if everyone agrees to the terms and perform a task according to the terms the laborer has every right to his wages.
| |
| | |
| Yes, a socialist system among anyone other than saints will tempt people to be slothful or abuse their neighbor. It also encourages [[lasciviousness]] and tempt some to exercise abusive power.
| |
| | |
| Once there is a relationship involving a surety of debt a person is bound until the debt is paid or the master releases or the master and all their heirs are dead. Joseph was in bondage. Ishmaelites bought him out of a death pit and sold him a slave. He was in bondage. His father would have paid the ransom if he would have known, or even Joseph could have bought his freedom as he was being blessed. But evidently, Joseph saw he had a purpose in remaining and serving in Egypt. That purpose brought thousands into bondage besides the Israelites yet God had a purpose.
| |
| | |
| God has a plan for each of us. We need to guard against imposing rules of behavior on other people or even judging other people's choices. [[John the Baptist]] did not forbid soldiers from being soldiers but told them to perform their duties with [[righteousness]].
| |
| | |
| Jesus did not start with [[come out]] of her and neither did [[Moses]]. They both started with organizing the people to care for one another through charity and free will offering. They both organized the people int patterns of [[tens]]. Both had their government supported by freewill offerings through a pattern of tens and a priesthood that served the people often rightly dividing the bread from family to family. Bot required those public ministers to own [[all things common]] because they belonged to God and were separate from the people.
| |
| | |
| Until the people are doing that they should not expect to be free and if not free they have a right to be good servants in the system. They have a right to protect their neighbor and themselves even by running for office in the system they are bound in.
| |
| | |
| If they remain steadfast in the ways of Christ they are giving people a choice. And when that choice is made judgment will come. Most preachers are not preaching the kingdom nor doing what Jesus ordained.
| |
| | |
| I do not think people fully understand the strategy nor their platform or purpose for those people still in the system. They are not seeking to make a more efficient socialist state but are promoting kingdom values. I have little doubt eventually people will oppose the ways of liberty and responsibility. But also people will begin to wake up. That is why in both cases they intend to create that alternative found in the way of Christ. You have to give Nineva a chance to repent.
| |
| | |
| | |
| == The kingdom of the world is already established and entitled to the bricks the people make ==
| |
| | |
| | |
| The people created the system. Sold their children into it and the government has every right to tax them to pay the workers in that government. The people in that government who honestly do the work whether it is maintaining roads or teaching in schools or keeping books have a right to the pay they earn.
| |
| | |
| This is what Romans 13: is also about verse 14 " For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to [execute] wrath upon him that doeth evil." The people should be taxed and should pay their salaries "5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. 6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God’s ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
| |
| 7 ¶ Render therefore to all their dues: [[tribute]] to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour."
| |
| | |
| Honesty comes in doing a good job, making a good road, teaching the truth. There is a congregant teaching in a school and he is trying to bring in some truth. Look at John Taylor Gatto. Look at the few congressmen who tell the truth about the budget and the corruption and abortion. Many of them are not far from the kingdom.
| |
| | |
| | |
| | |
| == Yes, human magistrates may be false [[gods]] ==
| |
| | |
| Yet Jesus says John 10:34 "Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are [[gods]]?" Judges of the world have lots of power through the sloth of the people but how they use it will determine the fate of their soul. I do not vote as a minister of the Church but the people in the system can vote in self-defense and in the defense of righteousness. It is how they vote that will really make the difference. All the time they should be seeking the kingdom of God just like the Israelites in Egypt. They learned to provide for each other and even for other Egyptians. At the time Aaron was probably not making bricks because he knew the arts of the temple which was a bank.
| |
| | |
| People talk about edifying the kingdom. The kingdom of God provided all the service of a government in a kingdom fashion. The people I know of running for office are talking about individual responsibility and less dependence on government. If they get elected they will learn who sees that kingdom principle and I suspect they will also eventually be rejected by the spirit of socialism in people of the world. They will come away knowing who can hear the kingdom message.
| |
| | |
| I know those people and know they are solidly for the kingdom and they may do more for building the congregations than those who what to just get themselves out. Remember the Israelites and even the early Christians except for the disciples where a part of the system until they were cast out. Meantime they were learning kingdom ways.
| |
|
| |
| The Church is about to obtain property here to use as a retreat ground where people can learn about kingdom health, caring for the elderly, helping unwed mothers keep their child and learn about family. The land has been purchased by the labor of the Order and God's grace, not by donations of the people. How many people are willing to help in the union and discipline to establish a facility to provide services in the manner of the Kingdom?
| |
| | |
| | |
| == expanding the budget or lifting burdens ==
| |
| | |
| We have no interest in "explicitly expanding the budget for Medicaid " and neither does anyone else that I know of in His Church. They all advocate " pointing people back to taking responsibility by creating private solutions " through charity and voluntarism. If someone is talking about state ballot initiative that is not its purpose. It is meant to keep local state tax dollars already being taken to stay in the state rather than go to other more progressive states who have raised mean income requirements.
| |
| People need to do hard research and find out what is really going on in the world and not just look at labels and listen to sound bites or catchphrases.
| |
| | |
| Christ established an alternative supported by the "substance" of the people.
| |
| | |
| Luke 8:3 "And Joanna the wife of Chuza Herod’s steward (treasurer), and Susanna, and many others, which ministered unto him of their substance."
| |
| | |
| Others were contributing half their income to help the needy. Ministers gave even more. These were people serious about the kingdom.
| |
| | |
| Today the tax liability for many is around 50% and going to get higher. Most of it goes to service the debt rather than provide benefits. And many benefits and payments go to the wrong people or is eaten up by bureaucratic waste. And many of the services provided may do more harm than good.
| |
| | |
| There were [[two Trees]] in the garden. There are two choices and two directions before us all.
| |
| | |
| God's ordained government is also a man-made government but it is simply made by men and women who are doers according to the pattern of Jesus' government. The people have not done that yet nor are they even close to doing it.
| |
| | |
| Ministers spent some of this week actually examining and researching existing laws to see if there is a way to actually lift the burden of forced healthcare payments from participating congregants. People can talk to their ministers and get a report on what they are finding.
| |
| | |
| We and some others have been trying to wake people up to the true nature of the kingdom for forty years. If people were just doing what the Amish have done for a century they to would be exempt from forced State-run healthcare systems and people would be creating true Christian bonds that they will need for a righteous society.
| |
| | |
| No one is free just because they say they are nor say they believe. Jesus says you must be doers of the word.
| |
| | |
| Ordained ministers do not get Medicaid nor Medicare nor collect social security nor many other services of the States of the [[world]]. Many of the congregants do not want to depend upon the World in time of need. But until people sit down in the tens and savor the serve and [[sacrifice]] of Christ in their own hearts there will be no loaves and fishes.
| |
| | |
| | |
| == What is so bad about socialism ==
| |
| | |
| Every government in the world has an element of [[socialism]] in it. It is based on the idea of [[One purse]]. and Proverbs 1:14 say "Cast in thy lot among us; let us all have one purse:" It goes on to tell us in verse 15 and 16 "My son, walk not thou in the way with them; refrain thy foot from their path: For their feet run to evil, and make haste to shed blood."
| |
| | |
| But the "[[early Church]] specific" held [[all things common]].
| |
| | |
| The '''[[Levites]]''', who were the '''[[Church in the wilderness]]''', held ''[[all things common]]'' so were they like the ''[[one purse]] that runs toward evil''? The answer is "No" because they were not to "lay wait for blood" or "lurk privily for the innocent without cause" which we can see clearly if we read Proverbs' "one purse" reference [[One_purse#Read_One_purse_in_context|in context]]. <Br>The purpose of the '''[[early Church]]''' ''specific'' and the '''[[Church in the wilderness]]''', ''the [[Levites]]'', was to serve and they were both restricted as "bondservants" of God. <Br>[[Socialism]] in the sense of having [[one purse]] is not a problem among ''saints'' who own [[all things common]] as [[joint heirs]] but also, meeting the [[vow of poverty|requirements and limitations of Christ]], do not ''[[exercise authority]] one over the other''.
| |
| | |
| So the problem with [[socialism]] is the intent of the people not the system in its most basic form. When people say they like [[socialism]] is it because they love their neighbor or is it because they are jealous and envious of their richer neighbors? Are they in it for the personal gain?
| |
| | |
| We have to be careful of thinking in labels. People are trapped today in [[socialist]] type systems of the world. But what is in their heart?
| |
| | |
| If someone is running for office in a political system the question you and they should ask is "Are they doing it for gain or are they doing it to serve other people? Are they "laying in wait for blood" or "lurking privily for the innocent without cause" or are they following the leading of the [[Holy Spirit]]? Maybe they are trying to save the ''blood of the innocent''.
| |
| | |
| [[Jesus]] sent his original 70 out in pairs for a reason. The [[early Church]] gathered in [[Orders]] of [[tens]] because the world is a dangerous place full of lurking spirits and "[[temptations]]".
| |
| | |
| The governments of the [[world]] are a dangerous place because they are filled with men who in spirit do ''lurk privily for personal power''. Let the [[Holy Spirit]] be their guide and whether they are merely voters or employed as an officer or centurion, or administrator or publican they should guard against neglecting the [[tens]] gathering toward the [[Kingdom of God]] and His [[righteousness]]. There are "[[temptations]]" in the systems of the [[world]] which is the "unrighteous [[mammon]]".
| |