Conversation with Mosheh

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The following began with a conversation on a Facebook group after I posted some information on Property rights.

I have recorded my Conversation with Mosheh at http://www.preparingyou.com in the hope of helping other people see the truth that will set them free if they seek it with all their heart in true love and faith.

Ways and Means

Conversation with Mosheh, a constitutionalist. Bull moose party. Article 1, Section 10, Clause 1 of the Constitution. Kingdom Newsletter recent reports: Warriors That Farm, and Free Justina. You cannot legislate back that which you've lost by becoming bound in contract.

The first response from Mosheh after the Property rights post was: Conversations with Mosheh http://www.hisholychurch.net/kkvv/x4folder/140222convmoses01.mp3


This is essentially correct... however... since the Federal government mandates that we cannot use anything but their fake money fiat..... we have no choice.... as such... any contract based on this is null and void... but you have to know this to be able to object... and even still other contracts such as the birth certificate and social security bind people to the system as it were.... this is the problem.... our nation went off of constitutional standards in 1933.... and started a state of never ending bankruptcy... a bankruptcy... which places all our land and possessions as collateral on the loans... and never ending debt created by the national banking act of 1933.... all of which is part of the NEW DEAL OF 1933..... where our nation went off of constitutional law.... and limits... and became an emergency war powers government... which is the point of this group.... to stand to restore constitutional law... limits... real money... and real property rights...

Citizen

I replied:

You (as a citizen of the United States) own no means by which to lawfully restore constitutional law or government. The contracts are not null. If you could use gold and silver as money what difference would it make now?

If you wish to buy land with substance from whom would you buy it?

No one owns a true and actual lawful title that you could purchase.

This is not a new problem in history but an old one and the solution is not a return to the constitution of the early 1800 for numerous reasons I share in one of our free books. But there are values we need to seek as a society and community which have long been neglected. There is much we forgot even before 1933 that could have helped us retain our natural God given rights.

Our individual natural rights will not return to us until we take back our individual responsibility in society.

  • "My son, if thou be surety for thy friend, if thou hast stricken thy hand with a stranger, Thou art snared with the words of thy mouth, thou art taken with the words of thy mouth." Proverbs 6

You are back in the bondage of Egypt. The lack of knowledge in your own parents and grandparents may have put you there but there you are. I shared with you one chapter of that book but they are all free on the net as well as other books I have written about the constitution, the present and past bondage of society throughout man's history and the solutions that worked and those that did not work.

Value of rights

To which Mosheh responded"

that is a very weak attitude.... to suggest there is no way to set ourselves free.... we can be free... by restoring the sovereign capacity of our government to create real money and set its value... as such... all such debts.... to bankers... can be made null and void.... and real property rights restored.... simple.... anything that has been lost due to contracts.... can be restored by our governments. sovereign capacity to create law.... to write amendments.... to set the basis for law... to set constitutional standards for how we organize our nation.... and if we choose.... to end the debt... end the use of fiat... and restore real property rights... then we could... and the only thing stopping us... would be weak people who say we cannot..... and in the end... if they won't get out of the way... they will have to be removed.



I replied:

I did not suggest that there is no way to become free.

First, There is no right of government to set the value of money in a free society. If the government has the power to set the value of money then the people do not have that power or right and therefore they are no longer free.

If you would use "commodity money" then the value is set by the parties of the transaction and liberty can grow.

But you have gone beyond that and have lost the capacity to have a free economy for the present until you settle the issue of surety of your own debt. The rest of proverbs tells you what to do and rebelling against the truth of your own bondage is not included as a remedy.

Second, the government cannot restore what it no longer has. If you did not notice the government is plunged into international debt. The debt is not owed to government but owed by government and the people became a surety for that debt when they voluntarily signed up for Social Security, which is also bankrupt as the government is bankrupt. http://www.hisholychurch.org/news/articles/notsecuress.php

There is a solution but it will require that individuals recognize the problem and their own part in its making and then act in a way contrary to what has brought them to their present state.

The bondage of Egypt came because the people did not have their own provisions. They had to make a deal with government of Egypt where all land including gold and silver belonged to the government and the people only enjoyed "legal title". And the people also had to pay one fifth or 20% of their labor to the government annually.

When your parents struck a deal with FDR you did not have the advantage of Joseph setting the terms for you and there was no sealing of 20% so you will often pay more. The contract is the same kind of social contract and the government can make no law impairing the Obligation of Contracts. What you pay to keep your land and what you pay to have your labor is "tribute" and they are the result of social contract in the form of an application for benefits and security like free bread, 50,000,000 Americans get free bread with their EBT cards. The same amount on Medicaid and then there is unemployment and Social Security disability.... And what of public schools. Before 1910 most Americans were not educated in tax funded schools. 2000 years ago it was known that “The real destroyer of the liberties of the people is he who spreads among them bounties, donations and benefits.” Plutarch

Your application makes you a surety for the debt of these and other programs. More than a hundred years before Christ it was written in "The Histories",

  • “And hence when by their foolish thirst for reputation they have created among the masses an appetite for gifts and the habit of receiving them, democracy in its turn is abolished and changes into a rule of force and violence. For the people, having grown accustomed to feed at the expense of others and to depend for their livelihood on the property of others, as soon as they find a leader who is enterprising but is excluded from the houses of office by his penury, institute the rule of violence; and now uniting their forces massacre, banish, and plunder, until they degenerate again into perfect savages and find once more a master and monarch.” - Polybius The Histories 6.9.7-9


It was not the supreme court or the president that lapped up those benefits at the expense of their neighbors.

There is a solution. It will take humility and perseverance. It will take sacrifice and diligence.

Proverbs 23:1 says "When thou sittest to eat with a ruler, consider diligently what [is] before thee: And put a knife to thy throat, if thou be a man given to appetite. Be not desirous of his dainties: for they are deceitful meat."

Or how about Psalms 69:22 "Let their table become a snare before them: and that which should have been for their welfare, let it become a trap." and, Romans 11:9 "And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:"

So the truth is what should have been for their welfare has become a trap and a snare.

Peter was right in 2 Peter 2:1 In our media, churches and public schools "false teachers among" us... "And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not."

Like I said, all our books and articles are free and since many here think the constitution is your salvation you might want to start with the book, Contracts, Covenants and Constitutions
1. The Party of the first part
The Quiet Revolution
http://www.hisholychurch.org/study/covenants/ccc1.php

Reason, rights and rule

Audio 4 goes here

His following response reveals two things at least. He is not following the logic presented and he really wants to rule by power rather than right and does not want to focus on the individuals lack of righteousness. Of course there can be no rights without righteousness.


Mosheh

You cannot say our government does not have the power to restore constitutional law or standards..... as the government controls the armies... and has all the guns... and as such... can change the law any way it wants, and force its way.... and as long as it has the backing of the people then bankers and international debt holders can cry all they like... or go to war.... that is how it has always been... however... I see your point in that ... it would be best if the entire world... changed their ways... so that all nations could change back to proper standards of freedom and private property.... I offer a plan for this... an international solution... allowing the IMF and World Bank to lead the charge to set all nations free... and start over without any debts... http://mosheh.org/Message-for-Bankers.html in this way... the bankers... could take credit for solving for all world debt and also... ending poverty... and then... they would be loved instead of hated.


Mosheh Eesho Muhammad Al-faraj Thezion's economic solution site | A message for all... mosheh.org HomeTHE ISSUESAbortionBanks / Credit CardsbudgetBusiness Benefitscap and tradeThe ConstitutionCurrencydont ask dont tellDrugsEconomic RegulationEducationExcessive TaxationFair ElectionsFixing the EconomyFreedom and THE LAWForeign PolicyA global CaliphateGlobal WarmingIllegal ImmigrationIsraeliraq an...



My reply:

Actually I said "Second, the government cannot restore what it no longer has. " I also made it clear that you have lost your rights due to covetousness and sloth not because you have been robbed. As long as people want to blame someone else rather than take the responsibility for our own part in this boondoggle they will not be free nor will they get their property rights back.

The violent use of guns will not get back rights most people willingly gave up to obtain benefits at the expense of their neighbor will not get them rightful ownership. There is a maxim of law that “Things captured by pirates and robbers do not change ownership.” Besides it is false hopes to imagine that the America has the will to win such a conflict. They did not have the will to stop the bail out. They do not even know what it was about or the will to find out.

It might "be best if the entire world... changed" but you need a better and mor practical plan. You need a plan where only 10 percent have to change... to make a real difference

I also do not think the IMF would or could solve any problem. It is usually causing problems.

In Acts 19, we see ministers of Christ being accused in Ephesus of being church robbers, guilty of sacrilege. What “church” were they robbing? The assembly at Ephesus was fashioned according to the doctrines of Diana, e.g. Artemus in the Asiatic traditions but few people know what that meant or its function. It’s center was a massive temple similar in design to the front of the US treasury. It could seat over 24,000 people. It had been built by 127 different governments, as it was strategically located on major trade routes. The most interesting thing was its purpose. It contained a great vault, which was considered one of the safest depositories in Asia Minor. This temple actually functioned as a bank and even minted coin. The “high priest” was also a credit officer making loans and collecting interest, managing valuable property, and in charge of security for those who deposited valuables in the temple in the course of commerce and trade. There were regular and sizable contributions by members in the hopes of a secure return, profit, or gain. There was coinage of money and the issuing of script. It was not only a bank, but a treasury on a national and international basis. It was not unlike the World Bank or IMF.

This reference to a temple as a bank is not uncommon. The temples in Egypt acted much like a bank: issuing script, coining forms of usurious money, making loans, and collecting interest. These temples of ancient times also acted as investment houses for mining, trade, and even military ventures.

It also provided social insurance through a system of Qurban or as an underwriter. Ot was the offer of benefits that brought the greatest loss of freedom as I have already explained. No the interesting point was that Christians were accused of robbing the temple. They were not breaking into the vault so what were they doing? If you knew what they were doing you would have a plan that could set you free.

To Heal Our Land
The Hateful Connection, The Unrighteous Corban, The Indictment
http://www.hisholychurch.org/sermon/healland.php
Heal Our Land HHC Sermons
What were those wicked2 ways?

Were they the wicked ways of those who followed after Nimrod?3 Were they the wicked ways when the voice of the people4 went against the advice of Samuel and rejected God5 by electing Saul? Were they the wicked ways of Herod and the Pharisees in Judea when they were told...

Titular or Law Maker

Again Mosheh responds:

We elect a representative government to represent us... so that we... the people need not revolt or rise up... or have blood in the streets... that is the point of a representative government..... so that if our government should be corrupted.... we can replace it... and the amendment process allows us to change anything... and repeal anything.. anything a previous body of government has been stupid enough to do..... This is how a constitutional Republic works.. or is supposed to work... so the claim... that it cannot restore what it no longer has is false... it can... it can restore anything we demand it to restore... and those who stand in the way... are then identified as the enemy to our freedom.... and people who say no... or say it is not possible... are people who must be thrown down... and removed .... as they... work for the bankers by telling the people there is nothing we can do... which.... sadly.. seems .... you are doing... ??? are you doing that??? Or will you stand with the people to restore a proper government to restore our freedom??? or not????

I continue to try to carry the conversation in a direction where a real solution my be pursued but there is a resistance that keeps people from seeing their part in the problems of today. We see the five Stages of Grief taking their toll because there is denial of the truth that we have played a major part in the present corruption of society and the rise of autocratic authority:

Actually you elect "law makers" now who rule over some things like equity and commerce. And then you entered equity with dozens of contractual agreements to obtain benefits at the expense of your neighbor.

All the government is doing is enforcing the contracts and collecting the debt you created by applying for benefits beyond the means of the government to pay for those benefits.

This is an age old story of people being brought into bondage and subjection by their own greed and avarice. You wont learn much about that history in your public schools.

The enemy of freedom is greed and avarice, sloth and apathy. The only greed and avarice, sloth and apathy we can do anything about without becoming tyrants is our own. If we do not seek righteousness in all that we do then we will not find our rights.

I did not say there is nothing that can be done.

I identified the real problem so that with the whole truth you can do something that works and has worked in history. It is the covetous greed as a society, their divers lust for benefits and the apathy of the the people that has brought the world into bondage. We have done this by applying the" the United States of America as a government… whose just powers are derived from the consent of the governed: a democracy in a republic.” See The American Creed.

In a republic the leaders are titular. The term comes from the Latin idiom Libera Res Publica meaning "Free from things public".

Audio 5 goes here


You are not free from things public if you eat at the tribal trough of the United States of America as a government. “If you have not your own rations, you must feed out of your tribe’s hands, with all that implies.” It has long been a maxim of law that "He who takes the benefit must bear the burden." This is a maxim of law but you will even find it in the California CIVIL CODE SECTION 3521

There is a solution but I am not seeing it here so far or on the webpages linked here. Even if you could replace your government that does not make your debt go away. Early Americans didn't rid themselves of debt by their so called revolution. The real American revolution took place more than a century before.

The real revolution came with John Smith in Jamestown and also in Plymouth because the rule of law became "If you don't work, you don't eat!"

That is not the rule in America today as I have already shown.

You wont be able to get your rights back using your present prescribed method for several reasons. First there is not the will amongst the people much less the character to maintain a free state. People want their benefits and are afraid of the responsibility that has always been correlative to rights.

The states were republics. "We the people" in the constitution, if your read the link above to "The Party of the First Part" above. did not refer to the general population in the states who opposed the Constitution of the United States and would have voted it down if they had been given the choice. You are not a citizen of those state Republics but residence of your state. You changed your status to obtain benefits. "The Party of the First Part" is only the first chapter of the books that gives you the whole truth and points to a real solution which we detail out in other free books.

Early Americans had a right to abolish the bands which had connected them with the king. They were not revolting against law or debt or even the king. The king was revolting against the law and the Charters and they claimed a right because of his 'unwarranted usurpations'.

The debts did not go away by force of arms. We were not pirates. Today you have an insurmountable debt which cannot be overlooked for convenience.

What you imagine as usurpation of your rights is merely the enforcement of the "Obligation" or burden of the contracts that resulted from your application for benefits. How can you be free from things public and still attend public schools, and take public benefits as a member and surety for the debt of your government? What you think is an American Republic today has more in common with Rome in its decline. If you want a real solution you need to understand the whole problem.

Rome vs US Does history repeat itself because man does not repent? http://www.hisholychurch.org/news/articles/romeus.php

“‘Civil Law,’ ‘Roman Law’ and ‘Roman Civil Law’ are convertible phrases, meaning the same system of jurisprudence.”

But he does not seem to get it and responds again suggesting I become a candidate of some sort.

Run for Ruler

Mosheh this... is why I ran for President... and why I formed this group.. to encourage people such as you... to run also... because as President... you or I... could declare a state of emergency... and be able to reverse everything that has occurred since 1933.... and the purpose of having 1000 candidates... is to drive home these fundamental issues in the minds of the people... so that their collective will... can be changed.... so that they will support a President who will restore their freedom and rights.... So will you sign up?? Will you run??? or will you make excuses?


My response continues directing him to the ways of the great liberators of the past:

When Moses came back to Egypt to set the people free from that system of "statutory labor" that was more like what we have today than what we are shown in the movie “The Ten Commandments” or a told in school.

Back then the people did not own the gold but used scarabs issued by their bank called temples as money and produced a similar form of bondage. They did not own their land or their labor and had to pay a portion of their labor to the government. Cecil B. DeMille did ask at the beginning of His movie, “Are men the property of the state? Or are they free souls under God? This same battle continues throughout the world.”

Well today they are property of the State and are literally "Merchandise" for the reason Peter states.

What did Moses do to prepare the people for liberty? How does running for president prepare the people?

Even Ron Paul knew he could not change the world until the people change. And what would be the point? Besides if he got elected someone would shoot him before he could do a thing. Besides he even said he could not change things the way you suggest.

Why don't you do what the real Moses did?

It is not what Jews are doing today. It was what the early Church did as Rome fell under the weight of its own corruption.

From the book Thy Kingdom Comes
Moses and the Altars
http://www.hisholychurch.org/.../TKC/TKCc3-1AltarsofClay.php


Leaders Looters and Loosers

Mosheh responded:

So... you will make excuses??? You will not stand up to lead... even though... you are uniquely qualified to do so... as you write and speak very well.... You.. could run... for the purpose of educating people... but... instead you make excuses and suggest... that you also fear a bullet...... so fear stops you??? Or is that just an excuse for something else???

So I again point him to the way:

I am leading and risking everything to bring the truth to you and thousands of others. I am educating people and not for profit or gain and with others "we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor."

Before governments will change men must change.

It is the appetite for benefits provided by the government that has brought you into this present state of bondage.

As it has done century after century.

You have to build a system rooted in virtue and righteousness independent of the government of the world. If or no other reason than to survive the inevitable collapse. But you must do it with love of others as much as yourself.

Matthew 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Repent means to change what you have been doing. Many of the Jews altered God's system of Corban which was their social welfare by providing it by forced offerings of the people through rulers who called themselves benefactors but made the word of God to none effect by their "traditions" which were ordinances. John and Jesus said they had to do it through charity and love. You can find this message repeated dozens of times in the bible, Mark 1:15 "And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel." Anyone who got the Baptism of the apostles which required that repentance, changing your ways, was cast out o the welfare system of Herod which also included Baptism.

At Pentecost thousands of Jews opted out of the system the welfare system of the state that bound them to the service of tyrants and opted into liberty under God.

http://movieclips.com/pJmK-jesus-of-nazareth-movie-men-must-change/


Mosheh still persists in his plan to have a thousand of candidates running for office.

If you are already risking everything.... then what stops you from running for office... as you would suffer no greater risk..... since you are all ready risking everything???? By running... you gain a platform.... a position to speak... a reason for people to listen to you... and read what you have to say.... you would risk the same "everything" but be able to reach more people.... open more minds... and if you stand with 1000 others.... then they cannot take you out... without taking us all out... united we are strong... and our world needs people like you... we need you.. to help us... BY STANDING UP AND RUNNING.... SPEAKING... LEADING... if you just filed... media journalists would read your work... people of influence would be 1000 times more likely to consider your words... and your service to god and his children would be 1000 times more than it is today... You write well... use it... why not? You don't have to win... just run .... and help us make waves.

But I keep pointing to the real viable solution:

I have a platform. I am on radio 13 plus hours a week, I write for NewsWithViews.com, we have a network of people all over the country who are seeking a real and viable solution, that have worked for the diligent in history time and time again.

Besides we know that running for a political office, especially one that you will probably never get, would be taking time and energy away from a real solution.

You might want to read the article linked on the following page to hear what Brandon Smith of the Alt-Market has to say.

The link is on this page and then read our solution...

http://www.preparingyou.com/wiki/Non-participation

There are other problems with your plan but there is little point in showing all that if you choose not to see where the real solution is at.

Whose the Robber?

This should be simple but Mosheh keeps missing the basic problem...

eh... no... which is why one of the points... in the 5 points... is to restore the constitutional Common Law legal system... WHICH WOULD MAKE IT IMPOSSIBLE FOR THE GOVERNMENT TO WRITE LAWS OVER THE PEOPLE.... a duh... get it??? Before 1933... we had a different legal system... one where every man was a king.. a free sovereign.... and as long as he did no harm... then the government could not convict him of crimes.... i.e.. failure to pay income taxes... was not an offense for which a free man could be punished.... because he has done no harm.... get it??? The fight to restore constitutional law.... is the fight to restore the Common Law legal system.... which would set us free.... free of government law making... and if your not wanting to be part of that.... that fight... then you.. are an example of the problem... an example of people who will not lift a finger... who make excuses.... which is sad.


Seeing the Target

Mosheh Tell me I am wrong??? --- http://mosheh.org/Freedom-and-THE-LAW.html

if you... will not run... for what ever reason... surely... you can see the value in having 1000 candidates run... on the same platform... 5 points... or more... so that as one team... we can push... the understanding you work so hard to express.... We.. as 1000... can carry the message you can write clearly for us.... How about that??? Help 1000 people run... who may all know they will not win... BUT THAT IS NOT THE POINT... the point is that 1000 united... could not be ignored... and if you helped organize and lead us.. with a clear message... then it would serve the goals you claim to have.


He is wrong in so many areas it is hard to know where to start.

First off there was no "constitutional freedom and rights" granted to the people by the constitution. The constitution created rights for government which were granted by the states.

Secondly your rights were not taken away. They were sold for a pot of benefits, civil protections and social security. Your parents signed and you signed. you have all taken the benefits and accepted your number that makes you entitled to those benefits at the expense of your neighbor.

No one took away the protection of the common law. It died from neglect. It died because people coveted their neighbors goods and because of the repose and apathy of the people.

These are just a few of the places where you are wrong it is hard to know where to start. Just a few places.

Before 1933 everyman was not king. Even before 1965 everyman was not king. Even as far back as 1798 everyman was not king. The right to be free has to be earned. I will admit there has been a steady retreat from liberty but that is because there has been a steady retreat from responsibility. Only about 30% of Americans were actually freemen after the American revolution. 50,000 men joined the British to fight against those freemen. The vast majority of Americans opposed the Constitution, would have voted against it if they were asked. They were not asked because they were not a party to the constitution but some how you imagine that we all become free if we return to it.

You should read Contracts, Covenants and Constitutions as I said before: 1. The Party of the first part

http://www.hisholychurch.org/study/covenants/ccc1.php

After the civil war there were even less freemen in America. It has been so long now that men do not even know what freedom is.

First common law is not a proper name. It is opposed to the civil law as a legal system. It is a general term that varies dependent on the time and place it is used.

The original common law before William the Conquer would not allow enforcement of usury in court. If you returned to that all paper money would become useless. All mortgages would be unenforceable. The economy would plunge into total chaos.

If we returned to the common law where every man was king of his own castle there would be no property tax, gas tax or income tax or any tax on "use" and therefore no public schools, healthcare, government roads, police etc ... Unless you want to force people to provide those things by taxing them. There would be people rioting, starvation, total chaos.

No my friend, America would sink into oblivion. Americans do not know how to be free and most of them do not want to know.

If you Google "perfect law of liberty" "Common Law" "legal system" you will find the link to what I already shared at least once.

http://www.hisholychurch.org/news/articles/romeus.php

The perfect law of liberty means you can never apply to anyone who provide benefits by taxation. All welfare is the result of charity alone. Who on this site is seeking that? If they are what is stopping them. That is what we are doing that and until at least 5% to 30% of America is actually doing that you will not be free no matter who you elect.

If you want to find the solution first you have to identify the problem. The problem is the people. Before governments will change people must change. That is what I am working on the problem you are working on the symptom.


Mosheh suggest that I am incorrect about the "COMMON LAW" but does not address the fact that the common law is what is common to and area or time. He also still seems to want to give power to the government or to the mob to take away rights if they so deem it right.


Natural Law and legal rights

Mosheh returns with

wrong... restoring the COMMON LAW.... would not prevent the use of taxes... or the payment of taxes.... as Amendments to the constitution are how law... was to be made... in many nations today who follow constitutional law... they have over 200 amendments.... to regulate Federal powers and limits... but that is something our nation gave up in 1933 with the NEW DEAL.... I say.. we return to constitutional standards... allow for the amendment process... and in some cases... the government could still write laws... if it was allowed to by and amendment which granted that power... such as traffic laws... it would be reasonable for the government to have this power by amendment... because people die while driving, and it is reasonable that we have traffic police to punish idiots and reduce reckless endangerment... but such law making power would be limited to what the amendment provides... and only that.... each amendment written in clear language, which as an amendment can be repealed if the people choose to do so over time... thats how a constitutional amendment process is supposed to work... that is what they gave up in 1933... and all these things... about contracts... would have to be re-organized to allow people to say "no"... and give up the supposive benefits ... besides... as to benefits... there is no reason the government cannot provide social security... WHILE STILL ALLOWING US TO HAVE COMMON LAW FREEDOM.... one does not have to remove the other... i.e... our government works for us... serves us... as it could by providing social security... without the presumption of the people agreeing to give up freedom for it.... Do you... want to restore the amendment process?? or not?


My reply is in two parts:

You evidently do not understand the difference between a republic and a Democracy. If the majority can make amendments that take away the rights of any then you do not have the right, the mob does.

“A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine.”

You must not be reading what I have shared where it was early on that the people's rights were independent of the constitution or the amendment process.

The people of the states were not a party to the constitution, did not consent to it or its amendment process therefore tell me how can it take away the individuals rights by taxing him?

I understand you live in a democracy in a republic and that is why they can take your rights away. But the real problem is that you waived your rights by applying for benefits and now you want them back without paying for the debt you and your democracy created while you were still requesting benefits at the expense of your neighbor. And now with your amendment process you want to retain the right to take away more of your neighbor's natural rights. You see in a pure republic your natural rights are safe from the will of the mob but in a democracy there is nothing safe from the avarice of the mob. It is very hard to discuss the law and history with you if you do not read the information I have shared in the links with hundreds of footnoted sources but keep repeating some of your personal ideas that are not based on sound legal grounds or principles of law.

I will leave you with this comparison concerning "timed" opinions of democracy to observe so that you can understand that you have been heavily influenced by what you have been taught, I wont use the term brain washed just yet.

In the 1928 U.S. Army Training Manual, it attempted to define democracy and, therefore, defines an earlier American perception of a democracy:

“DEMOCRACY: A government of the masses. Authority derived through mass meeting or any form of direct expression. Results in mobocracy. Attitude toward property is communistic - negating property rights. Attitude toward law is that the will of the majority shall regulate, whether it is based upon deliberation or governed by passion, prejudice, and impulse, without restraint or regard for consequences. Results in demagogism, license, agitation, discontent, anarchy.”

In June 1952, “The Soldiers Guide” contained the following definition and changing attitude:

“Meaning of democracy: Because the United States is a democracy, the majority of the people decide how our government will be organized and run - and that includes the Army, Navy and Air Force. The people do this by electing representatives, and these men and women carry out the wishes of the people.”


Uncommon Law

I will address your theories on COMMON LAW when I get back...


As far as being "wrong..." about "restoring the COMMON LAW" and taxes, I will try to clarify:

The common law is a very general term and may be very local in scope. Local in both geography and time.

If you want to equate "Common Law" and "Natural Law" then that is different but it is also inaccurate. Although natural law is often conflated with common law, the two are distinct in that natural law is a view that certain rights or values are inherent in or universally cognizable by virtue of human reason or human nature, while common law is the legal tradition whereby certain rights or values are legally cognizable by virtue of judicial recognition or articulation. Natural law theories have had a profound influence on the development of English common law but again what time period are we looking at when you say common law.

Common law to freemen is different than common law to subjects.

“Before the Norman conquest of England in 1066 the people were the fountainhead of justice. The Anglo-Saxon courts of those days were composed of large numbers of freemen and the law which they administered, was that which had been handed down by oral tradition from generation to generation. In competition with these non professional courts the Norman king, who insisted that he was the fountainhead of justice, set up his own tribunals. The judges who presided over these royal courts were agents or representatives of the king, not of the people; but they were professional lawyers who devoted most of their time and energy to the administration of justice, and the courts over which they presided were so efficient that they gradually all but displaced the popular, nonprofessional courts.” Clark’s Summary of American Law. p 530.

There are no freemen by definition in America anymore. The civil war and time has whittled them no nothing and without that large numbers of freemen the law which they administered become superfluous.

A man's labor is his and cannot be taxed without consent. You have undoubtedly given it and consent once given cannot be retracted where debt is concerned.

Until you realize that your apparent loss of rights is at least in part the fault o what you have done or not done you will not find a solution.

Chapter 4. of the book Covenants of the gods
Employ vs. Enslave
Audio http://keysofthekingdom.info/COG-04.mp3
Text http://www.hisholychurch.org/study/gods/cog4eve.php

And, no I do not want to restore the amendment process. I do not believe it needs restoring and would not trust men to do a good job with that kind of power under the present status of US citizens.

I am not really interested in restoring the Constitution either, not that it left. The reasons are clearly laid out in the book Contracts, Covenants and Constitutions. You can read it starting with The Unseen System: A solution for our times. http://www.hisholychurch.org/study/covenants/1beginning.php

I would like to see people seeking to restore the virtue and character that made this country great.

Law
Law | Natural Law | Legal title | Common Law | Fiction of law |
Stare decisis | Jury | Consent | Contract | Parental contract | Government |
Civil law | Civil Rights | Civil Government | Governments |
No Kings | Cities of refuge | Voir dire | Levites |
Citizen | Equity | The Ten Laws | Law of the Maat |
Bastiat's_The_Law_and_Two_Trees | Trees |
The Occupy Refuge Movement | Clive Bundy | Hammond |
Barcroft | Benefactors | gods | Jury | Sanhedrin |
Protection | Weightier_matters | Social_contract | Community Law |
Perfect law of liberty | Power to change | Covet | Rights |
Anarchist | agorism | Live as if the state does not exist |

Back Tracking

Well Mosheh seems to be giving up:

then you do not belong in this group... because this group is for those who WANT to restore the constitution as law.... not for people like you... to whine... and tell us to give it up.... good day sir.

So maybe this is the last response:

I never told you to give it up. I am not whining. I thought you wanted a solution for your apparent loss of rights. I thought you wanted to get your rights back.

If you want them back you will need to know why you have loss access to those rights.

The constitution does not need restoring. It has not left. You need to learn to understand how governments obtain more power over you and your actions your land and your labor.

Amendment IX

"The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."

You have not retained your rights. It is that simple. You have waived rights right and left by seeking benefits from the agencies of government and now those agencies rule over you.

The constitution granted rights to government. This was done by the States, not the people living in the States. But since that day the people have granted more and more rights to government through social contracts which the constitution forbids the government to impair the obligations created by those contract.

No one made your parents use federal reserve notes. No body made them get a social security number.

How many people ever read the social security act and understood the terms of the contract? It was available. Why didn't they read it? Why have you not read it? Why didn't you read the book by the guy who wrote the bill? or the article Employ vs. Enslave I shared with you. If you did you would know why you are a subject and a surety for debt. It has nothing to do with the constitution going away or needing to be restored. Getting your rights back has everything to do with you taking back your responsibilities.

But you do not seem to want to look at the people's failure to retain their rights. I recorded this conversation and will probably use it to produce some radio shows. You can remove me if you want.


Liberty by the Numbers

Mosheh asks a question:

I hear you.. but I do not see you proposing solutions.... perhaps you can line these solutions up... 1,2,3,4,5... etc... so we can go over each one with clarity.

I had to send a short response...

America use to depend upon their churches for almost all social welfare through free will offerings, Today healthcare, old age, disability, education... all are done by a government that takes from the citizen to provide those benefits.

We have to stop. Home school, home health, we are not like the church around the corner. We are gathering people in a network to ween people off of government.

The book Thy Kingdom comes details this process in history. And two more books and the preparing you network and the Living Network tell the rest...

I have a conference call in half a minute. Links are at this page http://www.preparingyou.com/wiki/HHC_publications

Mosheh pointed out:

yes... and why??? It could be for example... that in CA alone.. charities (including churches) rake in 50 billion dollars a year..... but... are not spending it on charity... in CA there are 30,000 churches... and 370,000 homeless people... thats about 12 people per church... but do they all bring in 12 people??? as they should??? no... hence the problem... the churches are not mandated to do so... and cannot be made to do so.... and the preachers... make excuses... so.. what alternative is there?? Except for some level of government social services... which again... could be allowed for by an amendment... which does not require the lose of any freedom which the people enjoy as provided for by an earlier amendment....

and then later I said:

You need to read the books... Those churches are not doing what Christ or Moses said. Moses freed a whole Nation from the identical bondage you are now experiencing. The problem is people do not know what he was doing, nor waht Christ was doing. The Church is not supposed to feed every lazy, immoral, selfish individual who finds him self short of cigaret money.

Those pastors or rabbis are not doing any thing like Christ or Moses. This is why I had to write so many books with so many footnotes. We lay it out step by step, show the law, show what they were really doing.

The Bible talks about the "perfect law of liberty", people "spying out our liberty"," free in deed". Even Romans thirteen is not what they are telling you, I wrote a whole book about it. It is not hard to understand at all. Read this short section "Higher Power"

From the book The Higher Liberty, Sec. 3

http://www.hisholychurch.org/media/books/THL/higherpower.php

Mosheh yes... they NOT are doing... what they should do... but forcing them too... would be oppressive... besides... charity... cannot solve all our economic problems.

This is why I founded --- http://empiricalchurch.org/Home.html to start and build a church that obeys Jesus and Moses... obeys god.... The Empirical Order of God's Children | Welcome

But I asked you for detailed... 1,2,3,4,5,... solutions... to the economic woes of the world....

I offer solutions... in case it matters --- http://mosheh.org/A-New-Deal_2012.html based on obeying god's laws....

Mosheh Eesho Muhammad Al-faraj Thezion's economic solution site | A New Deal_2012 mosheh.org


I followed with:

You are not going to solve all the worlds problems. Rome was going to fall. The US as it is today is following the exact same path and they do not intend to change but individuals can change and that is what Christ showed them how to do. In truth that is what Moses showed them how to do but the Modern Church is not doing it and most Christians do not even know how or what to do.

Rome went off commodity based money and a sack of wheat went from 6 denarii to 120,000 denarii in about 150 years. When I was young you could buy a loaf of bread for a dime and a gallon of gas for less than 2 dimes. I do not think we have 90 years left. Christ did not come to make the Pharisees to follow his ways or Rome.

Christians were not tying to force Rome to go back to gold and silver. He was not a dictator or a tyrant. He showed people a better way and told them to turn away from the way of the "world".

When Jesus said his kingdom was not of this world what did he mean? This World, NN Video Series:6-10 4:01

Nimrod to Now Series: Part 6: This World ~4 min


Your Churches mission statement is not have bad. Jesus was a great political strategist. He knew true or "Pure Religions" was essential to liberty. "Pure Religion" was how you took care of the deserving poor in your society. You had to do it by charity and with out the help of that "world" his kingdom was not a part of.

Religion, NN Video Series:9-10 4:27

Nimrod to Now Series: Part 9: Religion ~4 min


You asked for a 12345 approach. You are not at McDonalds or Starbucks. I did give you some goals and if you just got through some of the video archive you might see more clearly. The Christians survived the decline and fall of the Roman Empire. They even thrived. They did not need to force Caesar to do things their way. They merely had to come together and change their own ways. People can do that ... they will need to do that or even if you gave them freedom on a platter they would loose it all again. Men must change and that change is called repentance.

You need to accept the truth of the fact that most people will not want to change. Christ's plan does not require the majority to change, just the faithful minority.

If you do not want to read the books there are several videos that are easy listening that should give you some eye opening moments. http://www.youtube.com/user/hisholychurch


By the numbers again

Mosheh tries to goad me into some numbered recipe or five step program.

So you cannot give us a 1,2,3,4,5 style executive summary????? I know it gets hard when it comes to time to shine... but this is your moment... you either can do it... or not... and if not.. you will do as you have done... direct me to books and videos.... and ask me to create my own list of 1,2,3,4,5... solutions.... which... shows you either cannot do it... or do not want too... either way... if this conversation cannot progress into something to help this cause... then I see little more to talk about. You.. said you had solutions.


My Reply:

We have steps in different parts of our particular missions. There are steps in the The Free Church Report but you may not fully understand them if you do not know the history laid out in Thy Kingdom Comes. But you may also need to know the contractual nature of government and the motto of the United Nations Pacta servands sunt which is explained in detail in Covenants of the gods.

And then there is the sacred cows that started getting fat in this country when the schools stopped teaching the anti federalist concerns and much of American history. We also show people how it worked in the past. Once the principles are understood grassroots application should become obvious.

The conversation is not progressing because you are remaining in the dark. Almost non of your replies show that you have read what I offered. Most of your plan which I took the time to go and read is based on false perception of the problem. You think someone took the constitution away which is not true. It is still there.

What has happened is Americans have been making social compacts with men who exercise authority so they could go to public schools at their neighbors' expense and have social security at their neighbors' expense. Is it any wonder they elect socialists? Americans have been socialists for over a hundred years.

But if you need a list see First_to_do_List


True colors

Here we are finally getting Mosesh true color and nature. Listen to what he says:

Mosheh Thy Kingdom Comes? So... your solution starts as a religious government?

I never said they took the constitution away, I said they usurped it, so that the Federal government is no longer limited by it, and has not been since 1933, and this is proven by Senate Report 93-549

Americans have been socialists for over a hundred years??? Eh no... We have been debt slaves to bankers who use the credit of the people to provide themselves profit and power.
Socialism is where the government owns the major industries, and in our case, we have an elite set of investor bankers who own the majority of it all, not the government.

You step by step plan... is.. well.. Theocratic Socialism.

1. stop seeking socialist solutions.
a. Everyone take your children out of public schools.
----THIS WILL REQUIRE A TAKE OVER BY PRIVATE SCHOOLS, WHICH WOULD BE RULED BY MONEY INTERESTS, NOT CHURCHES.

b. Gather with others who are home teaching their children and help them do the same.
----THIS WILL ALLOW FOR ALL MANNER OF BIASED AND WRONG BELIEFS TO BE TAUGHT AS TRUTH... LIKE JIHAD. LIKE HATE... LIKE FASCISM... LIKE COMMUNISM... WITH NOT REGULATION.

c. Find out what they took out of your school books over the last one hunderd years and start teaching your children and your neighbors children as if you cared about their rights as much as you care about your own.
---- THIS IS IN DIRECT CONFLICT WITH HAVING SCHOOLS AT ALL... AND WOULD REQUIRE EVERYONE TO BE A PERFECT PARENT, WHICH IS NOT REALISTIC. (PEOPLE ARE NOT PERFECT)

2. Take the group you put together to get your children out of public schools and connect it with other groups doing the same across the country and around the world.
--- THIS WOULD BE ANOTHER ORGANIZATION WITH COMMITTEES AND COUNCILS AND AS SOON AS THEY FORM FOUNDATIONAL TEACHINGS IT WOULD BECOME THE SAME AS INSTITUTIONALIZED SCHOOLS.
a. Brainstorm with others on how you can improve the education of your children and theirs and yourselves.
b. Evangelize others on Home teaching.
c. Seek professional and experience individuals to take the education of your network to higher levels until children are better equipped in all areas of your network's/society's needs.
---PROFESSIONALS??? FROM WHERE??? THE GOVERNMENT SCHOOL SYSTEM??? DO YOU KNOW HOW MANY TEACHERS WE NEED???

3. Let each person in your group and in your other groups that are becoming a part of your network know that you are there for them if they have any legal. economic. social and or health problem.
---- HOW DOES THIS HELP??? UNLESS YOU SPEAK OF MANDATORY CHARITY??? MANDATORY DONATIONS??? AND WHO CONTROLS IT?

4. Organize your own FEMA network to aid in major and minor disasters, both public and private. We call it the Faith Emergency Ministry Auxiliary.
a. Prepare as individuals with the intent to help others.
b. Every house and home should have some ability to take care of sick and injured, help the homeless...
-----SICK??? WILL YOU TAKE SICK PEOPLE IN??? IN YOUR HOME WITH YOUR CHILDREN??? WHATS WRONG WITH HOSPITALS?

c. Remember the caveats of the Bible,
i. If you do not work neither will you eat.
ii. Christ slammed the door in the face of the foolish virgins who just danced.
iii. Forgive those who are brothers in this endeavor so that they might forgive you.
iv. Give that you may be given to in your time of need.

--- THIS LAST PART IS NICE.. BUT THAT IS ALL IT IS.

NONE OF WHAT YOU PRESENTED SOLVES ANYTHING EXCEPT TO PUT MORE POWER INTO THE HANDS OF RELIGIOUS GROUPS, WHICH IS FINE, BUT DOES NOTHING TO ADDRESS THE OVERALL ECONOMIC PROBLEMS PEOPLE FACE, AND ASKING EVERYONE TO SHOW LOVE IS NICE, BUT UNLESS ORGANIZED WITH THE SAME INTENSITY AS GOVERNMENT WILL FAIL... in fact... it seems.. your solution is to start a theocratic government organization which is simply de-centralized and with the power shifted into the churches.. which

which... is nice.. but not practical since most preachers will resist as they are not qualified to expand their efforts beyond what they are already doing. THAT IS THE PROBLEM.

i'M SORRY.. BUT I SEE NO SOLUTION HERE.
Remember one thing.... if the churches and religious people... were given power... and control of the economy... then when things go bad... they... will be blamed... just as we blame the government today... is that really what you want?

I reply:

The elite bankers own the equitable title which they got from the government because you sold them the title through hypothecation because you failed to exercise your responsibilities and retain your rights. They got the title while the people was paying socialists.

Of course you see no solution. That is why you chase none solutions. And you have a bit of a dictator heart so you will never bring liberty or have it until you repent. I will show you, You say "THIS WILL REQUIRE A TAKE OVER BY PRIVATE SCHOOLS, WHICH WOULD BE RULED BY MONEY INTERESTS, NOT CHURCHES."

What do you mean "take over"? It means nothing of the kind. It means everyone who wants their rights back have to pay for their child's education or depend on charity where they cannot meet the cost. That is the way we did it in America when we were still free. That means mostly home school. Home schoolers score thirty percent higher and are more socially adjusted.

You say "THIS WILL ALLOW FOR ALL MANNER OF BIASED AND WRONG BELIEFS TO BE TAUGHT AS TRUTH... LIKE JIHAD. LIKE HATE... LIKE FASCISM... LIKE COMMUNISM... WITH NOT REGULATION." You seem to want to be the "thought police". People should be allowed to have BIASED AND WRONG BELIEFS. They will soon discover those ideas do not work. Besides all those things are taught in your socialist schools now but almost none of them are taught by homeschooling parents. Although most of them are against abortion and gay marriages.

You say "THIS IS IN DIRECT CONFLICT WITH HAVING SCHOOLS AT ALL... AND WOULD REQUIRE EVERYONE TO BE A PERFECT PARENT, WHICH IS NOT REALISTIC. (PEOPLE ARE NOT PERFECT)" No duh! Where do you see a perfect public school. What is wrong with free market principles. Again we had schools all over this country before 1900 that were not funded by public funds.

you say "---- HOW DOES THIS HELP??? UNLESS YOU SPEAK OF MANDATORY CHARITY??? MANDATORY DONATIONS??? AND WHO CONTROLS IT?"

MANDATORY DONATIONS is what you have now. When America was free most all schools were maintained by tuition and donation.

There is the Fascist socialist peeking out of your thinking. You still think we have to force people to do what you want and provide the benefits of society to have things like educated children or health care. You do not really believe in the perfect law of liberty. You believe in forcing people to bend to what you want. You do not object to tyranny you just object to the fact that you are not the tyrant in power.

You say "-----SICK??? WILL YOU TAKE SICK PEOPLE IN??? IN YOUR HOME WITH YOUR CHILDREN??? WHATS WRONG WITH HOSPITALS?" Yes. We have. Besides you can still have hospitals but they have to be supported by charity not those forced donation you are so fond of. We use to do that in America when Americans were free people.

You say "NONE OF WHAT YOU PRESENTED SOLVES ANYTHING EXCEPT TO PUT MORE POWER INTO THE HANDS OF RELIGIOUS GROUPS, WHICH IS FINE, BUT DOES NOTHING TO ADDRESS THE OVERALL ECONOMIC PROBLEMS PEOPLE FACE, AND ASKING EVERYONE TO SHOW LOVE IS NICE, BUT UNLESS ORGANIZED WITH THE SAME INTENSITY AS GOVERNMENT WILL FAIL..."

Nonsense! Religious groups have no extra power. People will have power because people will have taken back their responsibilities to educate themselves, care for themselves and they will have given up on the covetous plan to force your neighbor to contribute to what you want like Cain and other socialists. You have to repent of your addiction to MANDATORY DONATIONS and actually start believing in the perfect law liberty.

You say "THAT IS THE PROBLEM" because most preachers who take the name of Christ in vain because they do not want to do what he said. But the truth is you do not want to do what Christ or Moses said either. John the Baptist said if you have two coats and your neighbor has none you were to seek to share and do the same in meats. You want to have the power to take MANDATORY DONATIONS from your neighbor. That is coveting your neighbor's goods.

This is why Peter said 2 Peter 2:3 "And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not." Plutarch was right the greates destroyer of liberty is those who spread among the people gifts gratuities and benefits... and when they do it at the expense of their neighbor they too will go into bondage, be snared and trapped.

Jesus even said in Luke 22:25 "And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors. But ye shall not be so:..."

This is why Americans have lost their rights.

They did not usurp the constitution. You neglected to retain your rights. You looked to the government to make your money which was a socialist scheme.

You expanded their powers by contracts and debt. "Contract makes the law" and "Agreements must be kept."

If the people understood money they could have refused to use Fed notes. The people were to lazy or to ignorant or both. It was well known you could not pay a debt with a note.

You did not understand how bad that was because you had become mostly a nation of socialist schools. Public schools which is totally socialism.

You already had a civil war 40 years earlier because you abandoned state citizenship. Social Security which people chose to sign up for is totally a socialist scheme that brought you into bondage and under tribute which I have already detailed out in the article Employ vs Enslave.

If you read the articles on Religion and Corban you would understand that social security is a "state Religion". I know you do not think so but that is the way they want you to think. You do not know the definition of these words. Corban is how Israel went into bondage in Egypt and in Judea under Herod the great.

http://www.hisholychurch.org/sermon/corban.php

You see they have redefined these words while you were getting your free socialist education at the expense of your neighbors in the collective school system. Read the article I wrote for News With Views.

That Word You Use- Part 1- Religion

What did the word "Religion" mean when it was written in the constitution?

http://www.hisholychurch.org/news/articles/ThatWordnwv.php

This... has become a theological debate... not a discussion of the merits of restoring the constitution as law.... as you seem to have no interest in doing that... and while many of the things you propose are very nice... they are nice for a religious commune or local community.... and have no bearing on the overall goal and purpose of this group which is to restore constitutional law... restoring Common Law freedom... restoring property rights... restoring the amendment process... you... clearly.. are not interested in doing that.... and you seem to say at every turn... that doing so would be a waste of time.... and I find little reason to continue with this distraction... as fun as it may be.

So many facts I have offered you and you do not address them. I show you that We the people of the United States" was not Americans but the people of the Federal government. Most Americans opposed the constitution and they never voted for and would have voted it down but without becoming virtuous there can be no freedom.

“I often wonder whether we do not rest our hopes to much upon constitutions, upon laws and courts. These are false hopes, believe me; these are false hopes. Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no Constitution, no law, no court can save it.” Judge Learned Hand Spirit of Liberty 189

“We estimate men as great not by their wealth but by their virtue.” Cornelius Nepos "Magnos homines virtute metimur non fortune " Which translates "We estimate men as great not by their wealth but by their virtue." That is not theology. That is truth.

Without the virtue of letting your neighbor be free there can be no freedom. “Society in every state is a blessing, but a government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.”Thomas Paine, Common Sense, February 14, 1776. “All who have ever written on government are unanimous, that among people generally corrupt, liberty cannot long exist.” Edmond Burke “Is there no virtue among us? If there be not, we are in a wretched situation. No theoretical checks, no form of government can render us secure.” James Madison. The growth of virtue in society requires free choice in the hands of the individual. If rights are responsibilities, is the delegation of a right a dereliction of responsibility?

It was not the constitution that made America great but the virtue. “You have rights antecedent to all earthly governments: rights that cannot be repealed or restrained by human laws; rights derived from the Great Legislator of the universe.”John Adams(1735-1826) Founding Father, 2nd US President

That is not theology or do you think it is?

But you may sell yourself a slave to gods of your own making by consent, and seal your bondage in debt.

Free societies are dependent upon the charitable virtue and nature of its members, not the ability to extract contributions at the point of a sword or gun.

This common system of self government was known by Abraham and Moses and used by many nations for centuries. The early Church was no different. It was based on the liberty of charity. Investment in the government was not in central treasuries that financed war and corruption, sloth and avarice, but was in the support of the virtuous people of society, which was the true treasure of a nation.

This network of tens, hundreds, and thousands could attend local needs or national problems quickly and efficiently, and the greatest among them were the best servant of servants, of servants.

That too is not theology but good government. And those who do not love liberty will not love that...

Social Democrats

And other despots

I went off to do other work and let Jim and Mosheh quibble and strut for awhile.... But I made a response to another post of Jim's and Mosheh commented directly to me.

Mosheh continues on with his conversation with Jim....getting no where while I do other work...

Mosheh "Gregory Williams ... I find it so odd... that a Bible thumping guy like you... would stand there and say Social security is doomed.... and that all welfare systems are doomed.... and that it is all doomed, and people should repent.... odd... very odd.... especially since our nation spend 500 billion each year on basic military spending.... 1/2 of which.. could end poverty in this nation and several others.... it has been estimated that for 30 billions or so... per year... that we could feed the world, and feed them well.... end hunger... for less than 1/10th of what we spend on killing people and being ready to kill people...... so the failure of any social service effort... has nothing to do with the math or having the money... it is simply that people do not care, and prefer to give greater importance to other things... and even you... would gladly let Social Security end.... and to rescue the day you would go to all the dead and dying people in the street... and tell them to repent... because if they are gunna die.... from poverty... then they really should repent... eh??? gesh... come on..."


I responded to his post... Mosheh you seem to be suffering from a common form of cognitive dissonance. You talk about liberty then you wield the power of government as if its purpose was to end poverty, guarantee social security of individuals, stimulate markets, provide jobs???...

Central Government is force. The more you look to it to solve problems the more powerful it gets. The more powerful, the more corrupt.

You cannot legislate away the sloth and avarice, greed or immorality of people and therefore cannot legislate away the causes of poverty.

You will never end poverty even if you had total dictatorial power. The poor you will have with you always.

There are natural laws against injustice. If the government is given the power to take from one class of people to give to another then there will be injustice because that in itself is injustice.

Unless through your own greed and wantonness you make a covetous deal with the powers of government, a social compact, giving it the power to take from your neighbor.

In that case as you judge so shall ye be judged. That is what you and your parents have done for generations. Now trapped in a democracy bound in debt you whine about your loss of freedom. You now think you can devise some pure democracy where only the just vote and moral.

Where will you find these holy voters who will only vote for what is right and just when you are in this pit of debt and bondage because you abandoned morality and chose to "covet" your neighbors goods through the power of government which is nothing more than force. Where do you obtain the right to force your neighbor to contribute to your welfare or even the welfare of others? That is the way of Cain.

I am a historian and only went back to the Bible to show people its historical context. The Bible is a book about good and bad men, moral and immoral men. The immoral men of history formed civil or city states and forced the people to do what they thought was good or evil. This always has led to corruption of government and a weakening of the people. But when people formed societies based on free will offerings to take care of the needy of society they prospered.

Yes "all welfare systems are doomed" that are based on forced contributions which is why America use to prosper when the poor were taken care of by charity and not government.

It is only in your imagination that without welfare there would be " all the dead and dying people in the street..." It is because of your covetousness heart and desire to force your neighbor to do as you see fit or right that there will be "dead and dying in the streets".

When the pilgrims and Jamestown tried to guarantee social welfare by forcing people to contribute to a common storehouse they starved every year but the very first year they could keep all they produced and there was no common storehouse except by free will sharing hunger ended and never returned.

But now you have a better idea... You think it is good to force people to give into your democratic socialist state. Hitler was a social democrat. I not only will "tell them to repent..." I will tell you wake up and repent.

The idea of social security by anything other than voluntary charity is fundamentally flawed and has always taken the people down the road of despotism and destruction. This was the theme of Moses. His government talked about in the Bible ran entirely on free will offerings, protected by a militia organized along the same patterns of their system of charitable welfare. Their courts were people's courts where they judged one another in both fact and law and the same people who managed the charitable welfare system manned the appeals courts.

You are not seeking the ways of Moses who actually freed the people but the ways of Cain and Nimrod and Pharaoh who brought the people into bondage. But you and all the so called Christians who seek the welfare of governments from public schools to health care and social security do not see their abandonment of Moses and Christ with their Socialism.

This is the cognitive dissonance that is bringing upon the world the destruction of all society, unless of course they choose to repent and return to faith, hope and charity and the perfect law of liberty, unless they actually learn to love their neighbor as themselves which both Moses and Jesus said. Jesus said "The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors. But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you,"

These men of force like yourself are not Benefactors of society or the people because they only give what they take from others. No man will be free, no society will be blessed with liberty, no natural right or life will be safe or security until men stop forcing their neighbor to be their benefactors.

Benefactors

There are other Conversations with the lost and unbelievers which you can read on this website.

A Conversation with Jim is addressing the idea of new wine in old wine skins and Saving Babylon

See more conversations...

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== Footnotes ==


About the author

To read more go to "His Holy Church" (HHC) http://www.hisholychurch.org/